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  #61  
Old 12.10.2011, 13:14
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

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just FYI... from my house to Zurich it's a 3.5 hour train ride.. then I gotta find this bar.. a bit much for the chance of a free beer and answers to questions that could be answered here.
having the opportunity to talk face to face doesn't exclude answering questions on the forum. i don't see why people are making this an either/or.
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Old 12.10.2011, 13:16
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

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What the hell more do you want?
A retraction of the new T&C would be a start
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  #63  
Old 12.10.2011, 13:16
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

Paul. I have been one of the biggest critics of how the EF is now run (from the Admin side, not the moderation) not because it is now a commercial organisation but because that organisation has such an appalling record of basic communication with the members. And being that the Local is a so called Media company, that is just laughable.

Arranging to meet a tiny handful of Zurich based members may seem like a good bit of PR to you, but believe me it isn't. You can do yourself, EF and the Local a massive amount of good by sitting down this evening and spending 2 or 3 hours actually answering questions that many members have been throwing at you for the last couple of weeks and which have been completely ignored.
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  #64  
Old 12.10.2011, 13:17
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

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My observation having now read the terms of use would be as follows.
Paul, if youre coming over to Zurich and want to meet up with some EFfers for a beer, its fair enough and it wouldnt be any different to a beer and burger lunch in Geneva in terms of the use of the discussion.
However, I do find it a bit on the feeble side to pass those legally enforceable terms off as simply" oh we only did it cos the lawyers told us to" - I personally don`t believe you and your partners are that naive.
Well, we created the terms of use because the lawyer pointed out that we ought to. I'm not trying to shift the responsibility for the T&Cs to the lawyer, just explaining the process.

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It is clear from all the comments that EFfers want to have a chance to discuss this and they may have misunderstood your intentions , hence the request for minutes of a presumed official meeting.
I would suggest that if you expect the members to take the terms of use seriously then you should respect their request for dialogue as well and provide an adequate means for all of us to express them , a debate without which, will leave some members still unsure of your motives.
Thanks
I certainly do take the members' views seriously, which is why I was hoping to meet as many as possible and why I'll do my best on that score. I wasn't anticipating a formal meeting though - my expectation was to sit around table and have a chat about things. I don't mind doing something more formal but I think that might put people off.

And of course, I'm happy to get something up on the forum afterwards but so far only three people are coming, which probably won't cover everyone's concerns. If more people are coming I might need some help with note-taking - might be hard to write with broken fingers...
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  #65  
Old 12.10.2011, 13:18
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

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***Third Time***

It would help me if people start a thread with just questions as they would start the basis of a set of minutes...
HTH
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  #66  
Old 12.10.2011, 13:22
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

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Well, we created the terms of use because the lawyer pointed out that we ought to. I'm not trying to shift the responsibility for the T&Cs to the lawyer, just explaining the process.



I certainly do take the members' views seriously, which is why I was hoping to meet as many as possible and why I'll do my best on that score. I wasn't anticipating a formal meeting though - my expectation was to sit around table and have a chat about things. I don't mind doing something more formal but I think that might put people off.

And of course, I'm happy to get something up on the forum afterwards but so far only three people are coming, which probably won't cover everyone's concerns. If more people are coming I might need some help with note-taking - might be hard to write with broken fingers...
Thanks. I shall await whichever means you choose to use to dialogue the members to reply to the above, as I do feel you cannot "go legal" and then have a "nice chat".
Anyhow enjoy the trip to Zurich.
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  #67  
Old 12.10.2011, 13:23
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

question thread created: Questions for Paul from the Local
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  #68  
Old 12.10.2011, 13:23
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

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What happened was this: we asked a lawyer in Germany about some changes to the impressum - and added the open question 'is there anything else we should think about' that is probably best to be avoided when talking to lawyers.

The upshot was that given the number of users on Toytown Germany and EF, we were advised to get a proper set of terms and conditions - which the lawyer duly produced for us. And we were told that the best-practice way to introduce new terms was to email everyone with 30 days' notice before they take effect. Email was the recommended channel since the majority of registered users won't log in during those 30 days, so wouldn't have seen a post on the forum itself.

Of course, it would have been the easiest thing in the world to have posted them first...
You got a German lawyer to draft Swedish law T&C's ?
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Old 12.10.2011, 13:24
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

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having the opportunity to talk face to face doesn't exclude answering questions on the forum. i don't see why people are making this an either/or.
It isn't an either or, is it Paul? You'll mend a lot of broken bridges (not all, admittedly) if you take the time to answer questions on the forum. They don't need to be the "right" answers, but a candid view of what's going on in our forum will help.
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Old 12.10.2011, 13:34
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

Actually, you cannot underestimate the social interaction potential of this but drinks in a bar will end up with Paul being cornered by a few people and the majority will be marginalised (along with those not in Zurich).

I'd welcome an open letter from Paul which lays out his intentions and roadmap for EF and goes on to explain what role Editor Bob plays and what brings Paul to Switzerland.

Such openness may actually eliminate many doubts. For example, it's been Editor Bob this and that with no mention of Paul until now - the big question is has anyone seen Bob and Paul in the same place at the same time?
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Old 12.10.2011, 13:36
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

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Actually, you cannot underestimate the social interaction potential of this but drinks in a bar will end up with Paul being cornered by a few people and the majority will be marginalised (along with those not in Zurich).

I'd welcome an open letter from Paul which lays out his intentions and roadmap for EF and goes on to explain what role Editor Bob plays and what brings Paul to Switzerland.

Such openness may actually eliminate many doubts. For example, it's been Editor Bob this and that with no mention of Paul until now - the big question is has anyone seen Bob and Paul in the same place at the same time?
No offense and I agree with your comments, but...

Who are you?! Seems like you know a lot more than someone who's made x3 posts
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  #72  
Old 12.10.2011, 13:39
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

Member since 2009....

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No offense and I agree with your comments, but...

Who are you?! Seems like you know a lot more than someone who's made x3 posts
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  #73  
Old 12.10.2011, 13:39
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

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No offense and I agree with your comments, but...

Who are you?!
He/she posts once a year. Come back mid 2012 for a response.
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  #74  
Old 12.10.2011, 13:41
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

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No offense and I agree with your comments, but...

Who are you?! Seems like you know a lot more than someone who's made x3 posts
I'm a long-time lurker who feels forced to post because of the new T&Cs - otherwise my account will be disabled or deleted or something
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  #75  
Old 12.10.2011, 13:43
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

Quite frankly, I've been wondering what all the fuss it about. On every board where I'm a member or moderate, the T&C is about the same as those now on EF, with the only differences being the US, UK or translated legal-beagleeze, which nobody reads or even questions anyway. To me, it would be normal to assume that detailed T&Cs were simply not in place on EF and Paul, who is being quite upfront about it, thought "Oh, look at that, no T&C, lets fix that" as a normal administrative procedure.

Where the greater differences are between boards, is in the rules regarding participation and behavior, and their enforcement, but nobody has made a peep about that.

As for grandiose commercial schemes, I don't see that either in the Swiss marketplace, however a board does need to meet its costs. Earlier, perhaps Mark and others reached in their pockets to meet shortfalls, I know I donated a time or two, but I wouldn't expect Paul or anybody else, unless they were a misguided philanthropist in love with Ouchboy and grumpies, to run this board out of pocket.

So what's the fuss?
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  #76  
Old 12.10.2011, 13:46
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

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So what's the fuss?
personally I don't really give a rat's ass about the T&A's...if I ever say anything intelligent enuf on here for someone to want to copy and use... Gawd Bless em.

but what I believe the furore HAS been about is the absolute cockhanded way the T&A's were rolled out and the further lack of infomation or confusing information presented by likewise misinformed mods.
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Old 12.10.2011, 13:52
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

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personally I don't really give a rat's ass about the T&A's...if I ever say anything intelligent enuf on here for someone to want to copy and use... Gawd Bless em.

but what I believe the furore HAS been about is the absolute cockhanded way the T&A's were rolled out and the further lack of infomation or confusing information presented by likewise misinformed mods.
That seems contradictory. It's as if you wrote "I want to be fully informed and consulted about the new terms and conditions so I can ignore them in a much more structured and educated manner".
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  #78  
Old 12.10.2011, 13:54
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

I hope the drinks evening isn't going to be as boring and tedious as this thread
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  #79  
Old 12.10.2011, 13:55
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

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Actually, you cannot underestimate the social interaction potential of this but drinks in a bar will end up with Paul being cornered by a few people and the majority will be marginalised (along with those not in Zurich).

I'd welcome an open letter from Paul which lays out his intentions and roadmap for EF and goes on to explain what role Editor Bob plays and what brings Paul to Switzerland.

Such openness may actually eliminate many doubts. For example, it's been Editor Bob this and that with no mention of Paul until now - the big question is has anyone seen Bob and Paul in the same place at the same time?
As I've said earlier in this thread, I'm keen to talk to as many members as possible when I'm in Switzerland next week, so if a drink in a bar on Wednesday or Thursday evening doesn't work for you, maybe we can have coffee at some point.

I'm happy to post about the intentions for EF but since I'll meet at least a few of you next week, I'll wait until after that. There are really no plans for changes afoot - we've launched an edition of The Local in Switzerland and we'd just like to run the two sites side by side. Definitely no merging of the two, but inevitably linking between them in various ways.

Editor Bob is my colleague who is responsible for managing Toytown, EF and our forum in Sweden. We were in the same place at the same time quite recently, actually, in Stockholm, but I don't think there's any photographic evidence. He was in Switzerland a while ago meeting the moderators.

And as for what brings me to Switzerland - well, I was hoping to meet a few EF members... And hopefully I will be able to meet some other people that we work with.
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Old 12.10.2011, 13:57
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Re: Drinks evening (with founder of The Local)

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but what I believe the furore HAS been about is the absolute cockhanded way the T&A's were rolled out and the further lack of infomation or confusing information presented by likewise misinformed mods.
Paul.....make sure you pack your time machine, or swing by Cern and see if they have made any progress with that "faster than the speed of light" stuff they found in the cupboard. If neither are available, you may have difficultly satisfying the mob
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