Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Activities > Sports / Fitness / Beauty / Wellness  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 11.02.2011, 10:31
Eire's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tir na nÓg
Posts: 3,628
Groaned at 54 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,388 Times in 1,209 Posts
Eire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
Because that's what a lot of guy want to do...get big in size. Swimming is awesome and builds a lot of strength and endurance....but in terms of building muslces, it cannot compete with lifting weights.
Only the ones with a small penis.

(Or at least they will due to the roids if they have such a crap self image that they need to pump themselves up to look like muppets.)
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Eire for this useful post:
The following 3 users groan at Eire for this post:
  #22  
Old 11.02.2011, 10:32
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: zürich
Posts: 3,194
Groaned at 105 Times in 79 Posts
Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,625 Posts
i-b-deborah has a reputation beyond reputei-b-deborah has a reputation beyond reputei-b-deborah has a reputation beyond reputei-b-deborah has a reputation beyond reputei-b-deborah has a reputation beyond reputei-b-deborah has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Yeah, but it looks better, girls like it better, isn't that the point? Rather than build muscle on muscle just for muscle's sake?
Quote:
View Post
Because that's what a lot of guy want to do...get big in size. Swimming is awesome and builds a lot of strength and endurance....but in terms of building muslces, it cannot compete with lifting weights.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 11.02.2011, 10:33
lost_inbroad's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Town or region
Posts: 11,491
Groaned at 655 Times in 417 Posts
Thanked 16,388 Times in 6,379 Posts
lost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
Only the ones with a small penis.

(Or at least they will due to the roids if they have such a crap self image that they need to pump themselves up to look like muppets.)
Exactly...also, a lot of men working out at gyms lack basic core strength, overload on weights whilst not doing the excercise correctly.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank lost_inbroad for this useful post:
  #24  
Old 11.02.2011, 10:38
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
I am a regular member of ASIA - SPA since July last year with an aim of reducing my fat along with muscle build up. I guess I'm slightly overweight with 165 cm and 71 kg ( When I joined, it was 77 kg ). As suggested by the trainer, I do quite a lot of training ( free hand and weights ),maintain a balanced diet & having protein shakes which definitely helped to reduce the fat. However there is no significant improvement in terms of gaining muscles. Anyone provide pointer to a consultant trainer who can review my training list,diet chart and suggest accordingly ?
Any other suggestion from EFers is highly appreciated..
For muscle bulk it has been shown that maintaining muscle blood saturation increases size of the muscle trained (not necessarily strength), for this repeated sets of heavy weights (85% 1rep.max) at low rep. numbers and similar exercises per muscle group works to the optimum.
Classically bench press, dumb bell flys French press, squats.

Strength and lean muscle mass (healthier and more beneficial for sports) is achieved through lower weight (30-40% 1rep max) fewer sets and greater reps classically chin-ups sit-ups and press-ups.

I'm sure the trainer has already told you this, you can disregard all the dietary mumbo jumbo these twits feed you, a balanced diet is sufficient for all levels of sports. If you are a vegetarian on a high intensity weights program it might be of use to eat very marginally more protein (like a couple of eggs a week), but in general there is no need to supplement your diet unless you have a degenerative disease.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #25  
Old 11.02.2011, 10:44
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 17,182
Groaned at 665 Times in 516 Posts
Thanked 26,077 Times in 10,512 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
Exactly...also, a lot of men working out at gyms lack basic core strength, overload on weights whilst not doing the excercise correctly.
I think you're too late with this good advice.

He's already injured himself at the gym

Quote:

I had this injury 3 weeks before. While carrying out a hip - lifting free hand exercise ( It was prescribed as a part of abs ), I got this injury.
As I said, its on the right hand side of my upper back. Sitting on a chair or standing or walking or in any other position where I have to keep my spine straight, I feel the pain.
Till now I had 3 rounds of physiotherapy with lot of pain killers
It developed after I had the muscle pull while doing the free hand execise and since then the pain started.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #26  
Old 11.02.2011, 10:51
Eire's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tir na nÓg
Posts: 3,628
Groaned at 54 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,388 Times in 1,209 Posts
Eire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
For muscle bulk it has been shown that maintaining muscle blood saturation increases size of the muscle trained (not necessarily strength), for this repeated sets of heavy weights (85% 1rep.max) at low rep. numbers and similar exercises per muscle group works to the optimum.
Classically bench press, dumb bell flys French press, squats.

Strength and lean muscle mass (healthier and more beneficial for sports) is achieved through lower weight (30-40% 1rep max) fewer sets and greater reps classically chin-ups sit-ups and press-ups.

I'm sure the trainer has already told you this, you can disregard all the dietary mumbo jumbo these twits feed you, a balanced diet is sufficient for all levels of sports. If you are a vegetarian on a high intensity weights program it might be of use to eat very marginally more protein (like a couple of eggs a week), but in general there is no need to supplement your diet unless you have a degenerative disease.
You got a paper to support that? Since 85% is largely anaerobic I'm curious as to why it would increase blood saturation. Generally it is regarded that over 85% is working in muscle activation and making as many fibres fire as possible. If you take it to it's extreme and train eccentrically with 120% of 1RM it seems that you actually increase 1RM with no change in muscle cross sectional area at all. Low intensity leads to an increase in capillaries and blood flow to the muscle.

I'd be interested to see the research on blood saturation increasing muscle mass with high intensity exercise. Swelling in the muscle after heavy sessions is a different thing. Are you confusing this perhaps?
__________________
This message is a natural product. The variations in spelling and grammar enhance it's individual character.

Interested in skiing, Snowboarding or Mountain Biking in Switzerland? Information in English available
here.


Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11.02.2011, 10:56
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,403
Groaned at 365 Times in 295 Posts
Thanked 23,791 Times in 8,608 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
I think you're too late with this good advice.

He's already injured himself at the gym
Just for the record: I have trained in very different gyms over the years. When I lived as a student in a run down part of Hannover, my gym was full of "bouncers or worse" who lifted "Olympic" sized bar weights with 50kg discs on each side for exactly one repetition at a time. And they took all the stuff the pushers sold them.

Asia spa is not that type of place. You will in fact not even find really big weights there. The members are generally not body builders, but rather average people working in an office (typically CS thanks to the proximity to the Uetlihof). The trainers are not setting up plans to make you win competitions, but typically to counter the normal "office sitting problems" like strengthening your core and back.

So I do not agree to the "gyms are for pumping and unhealthy" - you can in fact use the same equipment to get healthy... all athletes do this as well.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #28  
Old 11.02.2011, 10:59
parnell's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Geroldswil
Posts: 642
Groaned at 219 Times in 140 Posts
Thanked 2,165 Times in 1,024 Posts
parnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
Typical body builder view and WRONG!

...
Building muscle mass has as much to do with the kind of weights you do as anything else. If you do max lifts and heavy weights chances are you will be mainly working on neuromuscular changes to the muscle rather than hypertrophy. Lifting at lower intensities 65%ish of 1RM will usually lead to more hypertrophy. Everyone is an individual though and you may need to find what works best for your body.
Ever train with a powerlifter ?

If what you said was true they'd have no muscle - but they're enormous.

If you've ever seen a powerlifter who goes on a calorie restricted diet you'd know that their muscularity is phenomenal.

My own observation is that you can't build muscle and drop fat at the same time - unless you're in an atypical situation :

1. rebounding after sitting your fat arse on the sofa for a few months - mostly due to muscle memory
2. you're massively overweight and underexercised
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank parnell for this useful post:
  #29  
Old 11.02.2011, 11:05
parnell's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Geroldswil
Posts: 642
Groaned at 219 Times in 140 Posts
Thanked 2,165 Times in 1,024 Posts
parnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
Only the ones with a small penis.

(Or at least they will due to the roids if they have such a crap self image that they need to pump themselves up to look like muppets.)
Some folks just like to carry some muscle - my neighbours (married couple)are on the path to becoming competitive bodybuilders and they're great - maybe you should stop being a massive judgemental ass.

EDIT : I should also say that before the guy started training seriously he was a beanpole - his improvement motivated his wife to get off her arse as well - she was just a typical 36 year old woman on her way to a widening saggy arse - now she's lost 7kgs of fat and she looks incredible.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank parnell for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 11.02.2011, 11:06
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 9,243
Groaned at 118 Times in 102 Posts
Thanked 16,857 Times in 5,912 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
Pretty much the same as "body pump" if others are in a "les mills" studio
Our gym is a "les mills" and I went along to the Body Pump once, nearly well killed me. I will go back though, I'm determined (honest), problem is it's on a Saturday morning, my lie-in day
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank PaddyG for this useful post:
  #31  
Old 11.02.2011, 11:07
Eire's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tir na nÓg
Posts: 3,628
Groaned at 54 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,388 Times in 1,209 Posts
Eire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
Ever train with a powerlifter ?

If what you said was true they'd have no muscle - but they're enormous.

If you've ever seen a powerlifter who goes on a calorie restricted diet you'd know that their muscularity is phenomenal.

My own observation is that you can't build muscle and drop fat at the same time - unless you're in an atypical situation :

1. rebounding after sitting your fat arse on the sofa for a few months - mostly due to muscle memory
2. you're massively overweight and underexercised
Actually, yes I have and they don't only do 1RM's They do 1RM's to help increase the strength but they also do training at the lower end of the spectrum too. Most people train on some form of pyramid. You can't train at only max. You need to build a platform to of base fitness for any sport. That means large volumes of low intensity with smaller sessions at higher intensity. You need this because it's physically not possible to train at max all the time without risking injury. Also the broader the base the higher you can build the pyramid. The power lifters I know did a lot of low weight plyometrics and also did quite a bit of mid range weight work too.

There is some difference in people. I have seen some athletes that have almost given up weights because no matter what they did they just increased mass more than was good for their sport and I've also seen people that had severe trouble putting on muscle mass no matter what. People who power lift often (not always) gravitate to it because of physique so in some cases they may be the type of people that get hypertrophy with higher intensity... and with sustained bouts of near max intensity then there will be more hypotrophic effect than for those who are training to get fit. But in general high intensity promotes neuromusclular changes rather than hypertrophy.
__________________
This message is a natural product. The variations in spelling and grammar enhance it's individual character.

Interested in skiing, Snowboarding or Mountain Biking in Switzerland? Information in English available
here.


Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11.02.2011, 11:10
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 17,182
Groaned at 665 Times in 516 Posts
Thanked 26,077 Times in 10,512 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
Just for the record: I have trained in very different gyms over the years. When I lived as a student in a run down part of Hannover, my gym was full of "bouncers or worse" who lifted "Olympic" sized bar weights with 50kg discs on each side for exactly one repetition at a time. And they took all the stuff the pushers sold them.

Asia spa is not that type of place. You will in fact not even find really big weights there. The members are generally not body builders, but rather average people working in an office (typically CS thanks to the proximity to the Uetlihof). The trainers are not setting up plans to make you win competitions, but typically to counter the normal "office sitting problems" like strengthening your core and back.

So I do not agree to the "gyms are for pumping and unhealthy" - you can in fact use the same equipment to get healthy... all athletes do this as well.
True - we both don't know how much weight the OP is trying to lift, nor the number of reps but seeing his other threads here on protein powders, injuries and concern that he's not getting bigger muscles, I would deduce that he's trying to get big rather than train for a specific sport or for general health.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #33  
Old 11.02.2011, 11:12
parnell's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Geroldswil
Posts: 642
Groaned at 219 Times in 140 Posts
Thanked 2,165 Times in 1,024 Posts
parnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond reputeparnell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
Actually, yes I have and they don't only do 1RM's They do 1RM's to help increase the strength but they also do training at the lower end of the spectrum too. Most people train on some form of pyramid. You can't train at only max. You need to build a platform to of base fitness for any sport. That means large volumes of low intensity with smaller sessions at higher intensity. You need this because it's physically not possible to train at max all the time without risking injury. Also the broader the base the higher you can build the pyramid. The power lifters I know did a lot of low weight plyometrics and also did quite a bit of mid range weight work too.

There is some difference in people. I have seen some athletes that have almost given up weights because no matter what they did they just increased mass more than was good for their sport and I've also seen people that had severe trouble putting on muscle mass no matter what. People who power lift often (not always) gravitate to it because of physique so in some cases they may be the type of people that get hypertrophy with higher intensity... and with sustained bouts of near max intensity then there will be more hypotrophic effect than for those who are training to get fit. But in general high intensity promotes neuromusclular changes rather than hypertrophy.
Did I say they only did 1RMs ?

A powerlifting routine has more sets with lower reps and heavier weights - generally around the 85% level - which was exactly the point you attacked.

EDIT - I've just seen your final sentence - got a peer reviewed paper to support that one ?

I've known tons of people who've blown up on HIT (high intensity) type routines - in particular - FFS there's entire bulletin boards devoted to it's success.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11.02.2011, 11:14
Rangatiranui's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Baden region
Posts: 2,185
Groaned at 14 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 2,469 Times in 1,088 Posts
Rangatiranui has a reputation beyond reputeRangatiranui has a reputation beyond reputeRangatiranui has a reputation beyond reputeRangatiranui has a reputation beyond reputeRangatiranui has a reputation beyond reputeRangatiranui has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Which reminds me of a very old but of course intensely useful thread of yesteryear..

Babes and Machos of the EF Calendar

My suggestion would be that those who wish to, display their pecs and abs and whichever other muscles they feel roadworthy.
This is of course purely for the purpose of proving that their system of diet/exercise creates the effect that they are looking for

Let us armchair analysts then be the judge
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Rangatiranui for this useful post:
  #35  
Old 11.02.2011, 11:15
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 17,182
Groaned at 665 Times in 516 Posts
Thanked 26,077 Times in 10,512 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post

Strength and lean muscle mass (healthier and more beneficial for sports) is achieved through lower weight (30-40% 1rep max) fewer sets and greater reps classically chin-ups sit-ups and press-ups.
This is what I have discovered, albeit with a sample size of one.

Mainly because I didn't have time for a gym any more during the week and didn't see the point of giving up any of my outdoor activities to spend time in one.

Quote:
View Post

I'm sure the trainer has already told you this, you can disregard all the dietary mumbo jumbo these twits feed you, a balanced diet is sufficient for all levels of sports. If you are a vegetarian on a high intensity weights program it might be of use to eat very marginally more protein (like a couple of eggs a week), but in general there is no need to supplement your diet unless you have a degenerative disease.
Most people seem to be in agreement with this.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11.02.2011, 11:15
Eire's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tir na nÓg
Posts: 3,628
Groaned at 54 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,388 Times in 1,209 Posts
Eire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
Did I say they only did 1RMs ?

A powerlifting routine has more sets with lower reps and heavier weights - generally around the 85% level - which was exactly the point you attacked.
Argueing for the sake of it. There is a difference between 85%+ I would agree that at about 75%-85% you will get hypertrophy. The more over 85% you go the less it will become. I stand by my point. Again vague figures because everyone is different. The concept still remains the same.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11.02.2011, 11:16
lost_inbroad's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Town or region
Posts: 11,491
Groaned at 655 Times in 417 Posts
Thanked 16,388 Times in 6,379 Posts
lost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond reputelost_inbroad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
Let us armchair analysts then be the judge
(in your dreams)
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank lost_inbroad for this useful post:
  #38  
Old 11.02.2011, 11:18
BUGFROMHELL's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Massonnens-Fribourg
Posts: 140
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 45 Times in 26 Posts
BUGFROMHELL has earned some respectBUGFROMHELL has earned some respect
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

NO PAIN - NO GAIN !!!

You cannot lose weight and gain muscles at the same time.

You can do cardio and weight lifting with light weights to burn some calories and get your muscles a nice shape.
Then, you can do weight lifting with heavy weights and less rep.

I used to drink protein shakes and for sure, I weighted more than now but you gotta work out hard in order not to gain fat !

The better way to gain muscle is to eat natural protein and to work out regulary.

I have been fighting years to gain weight. I was 74 kg for 179 cm, then I got seriously sick for 1,5 year. I am now getting my shape back, I weight 69 kg for 179 cm (yeah I did not loose centimeter... )

GOOD LUCK !!!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank BUGFROMHELL for this useful post:
  #39  
Old 11.02.2011, 11:18
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
You got a paper to support that? Since 85% is largely anaerobic I'm curious as to why it would increase blood saturation. Generally it is regarded that over 85% is working in muscle activation and making as many fibres fire as possible. If you take it to it's extreme and train eccentrically with 120% of 1RM it seems that you actually increase 1RM with no change in muscle cross sectional area at all. Low intensity leads to an increase in capillaries and blood flow to the muscle.

I'd be interested to see the research on blood saturation increasing muscle mass with high intensity exercise. Swelling in the muscle after heavy sessions is a different thing. Are you confusing this perhaps?
I defer to your greater knowledge, I think the thrust of my post was correct, I'm lazy though and 85% of what I can do is probably equivalent to 65% of a non lazy person lol. I think the 120% 1rm training is mostly working of the elastic properties of the muscle, and as you say completely anaerobic, rather extreme though.

I think a good course of action for anyone gym training is to find out their specific max rep. mass at the beginning of a program (1rm, 5rm and %of that) helps to take a pad a pen and a stop watch.

I personally swear by good hypertrophic exercises such as press-ups and chin ups, if you perform these with good form and lots of sets, you will be doing well, and feeling the burn, no need for a gym or a spandex clad trainer.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11.02.2011, 11:19
Eire's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tir na nÓg
Posts: 3,628
Groaned at 54 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,388 Times in 1,209 Posts
Eire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond reputeEire has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fat reduction with muscle build up

Quote:
View Post
Did I say they only did 1RMs ?

A powerlifting routine has more sets with lower reps and heavier weights - generally around the 85% level - which was exactly the point you attacked.

EDIT - I've just seen your final sentence - got a peer reviewed paper to support that one ?

I've known tons of people who've blown up on HIT (high intensity) type routines - in particular - FFS there's entire bulletin boards devoted to it's success.
Something like this for one:
or
Oh and my own degree thesis too.

I am not posting the full articles as they are copyright material. I've supported my case. I don't need to spoon feed you.

Last edited by Eire; 11.02.2011 at 11:50.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
interest rate reduction = possible rent reduction [Referenzzinssatz] jot Housing in general 409 19.11.2021 21:21
Want to lose some weight and gain some muscle Louis Wu Sports / Fitness / Beauty / Wellness 125 21.12.2012 12:48
The best sport to build muscle Nil Sports / Fitness / Beauty / Wellness 49 20.04.2010 08:48
Where to get heating patches for muscle pain? nasa2000 Family matters/health 7 14.02.2010 18:41
Help a fat loser bang a fat bird PlantHead General off-topic 17 13.11.2008 19:52


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:54.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0