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  #21  
Old 06.06.2011, 16:31
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

Get yourself a pair of Hoka's !

Karl Meltzer did the pony express ( 2000 miles / 40 days) in them

They totally go against the whole barefoot/minimalist trend at the moment but the reviews are very positive. http://www.hokaoneone.com/

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  #22  
Old 06.06.2011, 16:42
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

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Just run normally, I see the odd person with a really weird run, I think to myself, Why are they doing that? Isn't running hard wired in humans, we don't even need to learn it, maybe we need to reintroduce lions, that would sort things out.
Spot on!

To give a brief history of running,

First there were people who just ran, like they ate and had sex, no one showed them videos or coaching how to do it. It was normal and natural.

Next came mega-corporations (Nikes and Asics) with loads of marketing budgets, they peddled snake oils for some 2-3 decades by way of "specialist running shoes". College drop-outs who couldn't excel in sports either ended up at their stores peddling what scientists have convincingly demonstrated as a load of tripe (and I mean people with Phds and sports science degrees, and not your self-styled running coaches and masseurs kind of scientists .

And in 2008 came Christopher Doughall who started the barefoot extremism, in his bid to up his sales made exaggerated claims about barefooting. At least some of us thought it would reduce the consumerism that was afflicting running industry, but alas, the companies were smarter, they then started peddling "barefoot-shoes" (can anyone spot the irony of it ). Giving the rest of us a bad name as barefoot hippies.


OP: If I were you, I wouldn't bother much about shoes; in most cases they are like homeopathic drugs/placebos; harmless and useless in the vast majority of cases. Well-respected scientists who've spent their lives in this research have admitted the jury is still out on the relative efficacy of barefoot and supported shoes, science has just not evolved enough to understand the subject completely. Only in genuine cases (e.g. surgery, congenital defects, are prosthetics warranted)

  1. If you are convinced you have serious misalignment due to surgery or decades of faulty use of your legs, and if your primary goal is health, running being just a means to an end, then I would suggest you run very little and instead take up hiking uphills, cycling too, maybe until you are fit and light enough to run (sorry we have no idea of your age, condition, history, so it is presumptuous advice). If you have a genuine condition, you shouldn't be listening to amateurs on an internet forum in the first place, you need an orthopedic doctor.
  2. If on the other hand you feel it is a minor thing, and if you really love running, just buy a light weight shoe that doesn't claim fancy features, and ease into running gradually and run normally as your instinct and common sense dictates. There is no right or wrong style, we are all different. Personally I feel 5k is quite adequate if you are running for general health, so don't fret if you can't go more.
Maybe not what you were wanting to hear, but it might be food for others' thoughts.
Cheers,
N

Edit: In the interest of full disclosure, I too own a pair of Vibrams since 2009, because I like experimenting, and it feels kind of cool to wear one, the same reason why people wear hair gels and have tattoos. I use mine for special occasions.
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  #23  
Old 06.06.2011, 16:52
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

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Spot on!

To give a brief history of running,

First there were people who just ran, like they ate and had sex, no one showed them videos or coaching how to do it. It was normal and natural.

Next came mega-corporations (Nikes and Asics) with loads of marketing budgets, they peddled snake oils for some 2-3 decades by way of "specialist running shoes". College drop-outs who couldn't excel in sports either ended up at their stores peddling what scientists have convincingly demonstrated as a load of tripe (and I mean people with Phds and sports scence degress, and not your self-styled running coaches and masseurs kind of scientists .

And in 2008 came Christopher Doughall who started the barefoot extremism, in his bid to up his sales made exaggerated claims about barefooting. At least some of us thought it would reduce the consumerism that was afflicting running industry, but alas, the companies were smarter, they then started peddling "barefoot-shoes" (can anyone spot the irony of it ). Giving the rest of us a bad name as barefoot hippies.


OP: If I were you, I wouldn't bother much about shoes; in most cases they are like homeopathic drugs/placebos; harmless and useless in the vast majority of cases. Well-respected scientists who've spent their lives in this research have admitted the jury is still out on the relative efficacy of barefoot and supported shoes, science has just not evolved enough to understand the subject completely. Only in genuine cases (e.g. surgery, congenital defects, are prosthetics warranted)

  1. If you are convinced you have serious misalignment due to surgery or decades of faulty use of your legs, and if your primary goal is health, running being just a means to an end, then I would suggest you run very little and instead take up hiking uphills, cycling too, maybe until you are fit and light enough to run (sorry we have no idea of your age, condition, history, so it is presumptuous advice).
  2. If on the other hand you feel it is a minor thing, and if you really love running, just buy a light weight shoe that doesn't claim fancy features, and ease into running gradually and run normally as your instinct and common sense dictates. There is no right or wrong style, we are all different. Personally I feel 5k is quite adequate if you are running for general health, so don't fret if you can't go more.
Maybe not what you were wanting to hear, but it might be food for others' thoughts.
Cheers,
N
I don't totally buy into the whole minimalist thing. To me, it just sounds and feels a lot like the Atkins diet did when that first broke and became faddish.

I agree that companies have a vested interest in promoting their products and making a profit, but I don't think it's wise advice to tell someone recovering from a hip operation and experiencing pain to "buy a light weight shoe" and "run normally as your experience and common sense dictates". Just because some companies make a shoe that is biomechanically ridiculous (MBT for example) does not mean that all shoes designed to assist with biomechanics are "wrong".
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  #24  
Old 06.06.2011, 17:01
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

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I don't totally buy into the whole minimalist thing. To me, it just sounds and feels a lot like the Atkins diet did when that first broke and became faddish.

I agree that companies have a vested interest in promoting their products and making a profit, but I don't think it's wise advice to tell someone recovering from a hip operation and experiencing pain to "buy a light weight shoe" and "run normally as your experience and common sense dictates". Just because some companies make a shoe that is biomechanically ridiculous (MBT for example) does not mean that all shoes designed to assist with biomechanics are "wrong".
Just to be clear, I am not promoting minimalistic thing at all. I am saying if given a choice between a shoe that costs 300GBP a pair and unproven efficacy, I would rather invest my time in a good doctor and take his advice.

I am NOT telling "someone recovering from a surgery" to run at will. In fact I am gently telling him to rather not run at all, which if I am not mistaken, is what his qualified medical practitioner is advising too.

But if he chooses to ignore his body and doctor and run despite the pain, I would certainly recommend him to make a 50 dollar a pair mistake, rather than 300GBP a pair mistake
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  #25  
Old 06.06.2011, 17:10
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

Lou, if you're in Zurich, then maybe Uster is not too far?

Ryffel Running is an experienced shop with good sales people that are all runners. They're based in Uster, and it might be worth for you to visit them.

- They have plenty of shoes available for you to test.
- They seem knowledgeable with regards to gait analysis.

http://www.ryffel.ch/

Just my CHF 0.02 (EUR 0.02 // soon USD 5.00).
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  #26  
Old 06.06.2011, 17:11
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

Over pronation only happens because you land on the heal - it doesn't happen if you land fore/mid foot - which you can do whatever shoes you are wearing. Barefoot/minimalist running only makes it easier because without the heal cushioning you can't run on your heal.

I was trying to fore/mid foot strike well before I read the barefoot book - so it is nothing new to me - what is new is running without perceived cushioning.

On the evolutionary scale of how we run - running with a heal strike is the "fad" - it only started with Bowerman and his longer stride thinking.

In nature, we don't run with a heal strike
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Old 06.06.2011, 17:15
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

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Lou, if you're in Zurich, then maybe Uster is not too far?

Ryffel Running is an experienced shop with good sales people that are all runners. They're based in Uster, and it might be worth for you to visit them.

- They have plenty of shoes available for you to test.
- They seem knowledgeable with regards to gait analysis.

http://www.ryffel.ch/

Just my CHF 0.02 (EUR 0.02 // soon USD 5.00).
Sorry, but Ryffel aren't the right people to talk to about barefoot running, they sell Adidas, Asics and Nikes and the best they'll do is to sell you Nike Free 3.0s which although better than some models, still isn't giving you a true "barefoot experience".
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Old 06.06.2011, 17:25
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

Just to clear things up, my hip surgery was a few years ago. I was told at the time I would never run again or do any high impact exercise but I have managed to overcome a lot of things my surgeon told me I would never do. If I had listened to him I would never have climbed another mountain either & I have managed to reach the summit of quite a few of them since then too .

I am not interested in running marathons, I also hike, bike & indoor row and whereas I am not as fit as I could be I am constantly working on that. I got the urge to run at the end of last year and have really been enjoying my early morning runs as the sun comes up and I would love to continue with this if possible.

I thank you all for your input so far, it has made some interesting reading for me.
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Old 06.06.2011, 17:26
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

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Get yourself a pair of Hoka's !

Karl Meltzer did the pony express ( 2000 miles / 40 days) in them

They totally go against the whole barefoot/minimalist trend at the moment but the reviews are very positive. http://www.hokaoneone.com/
I wouldn't touch them, the complete nemesis to the way we're meant to run.

To all the barefoot doubters, you don't have to believe all these words, just get out there and try it! You don't need any shoes. Find a piece of dog turd free grass (tricky I know) and just run naturally, you won't be landing on your heels for sure. Now try a few laps of a running track or wood chip trail and notice how your calves burn a little, that will be your legs running properly for the first time in ages. We all ran around barefoot as kids, do you remember having joint aches back then?
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Old 06.06.2011, 17:34
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

I found this interesting as pre surgery I never ran heal first (I was a gymnast for many years so ran on my toes) but since the op I became a heal striker. Since I started running again I have been doing my best not to run heal first and have shortened my stride as well. Maybe I should try running on my toes again .

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Over pronation only happens because you land on the heal - it doesn't happen if you land fore/mid foot - which you can do whatever shoes you are wearing. Barefoot/minimalist running only makes it easier because without the heal cushioning you can't run on your heal.

I was trying to fore/mid foot strike well before I read the barefoot book - so it is nothing new to me - what is new is running without perceived cushioning.

On the evolutionary scale of how we run - running with a heal strike is the "fad" - it only started with Bowerman and his longer stride thinking.

In nature, we don't run with a heal strike
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  #31  
Old 06.06.2011, 17:37
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Lou what type of surface do you usually run on? Generally off road, uneven terrain is best for helping to strengthen calves and ankles as well as improve core strength, and avoids repetitive high impact on any single part of your body. Avoid concrete and stick to dirt trails!
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  #32  
Old 06.06.2011, 17:39
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

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Just to clear things up, my hip surgery was a few years ago. I was told at the time I would never run again or do any high impact exercise but I have managed to overcome a lot of things my surgeon told me I would never do. If I had listened to him I would never have climbed another mountain either & I have managed to reach the summit of quite a few of them since then too .

I am not interested in running marathons, I also hike, bike & indoor row and whereas I am not as fit as I could be I am constantly working on that. I got the urge to run at the end of last year and have really been enjoying my early morning runs as the sun comes up and I would love to continue with this if possible.

I thank you all for your input so far, it has made some interesting reading for me.
A very inspiring case
That is what I guessed too, from reading between the lines, which is why in my earlier post I said it is for you to decide whether you fit in category 1 or 2. If you can climb a mountain, you can probably also transition to barefoot/unsupported running.

BTW I have a good friend (who's actively participating in this thread ), 2 years back he was my hiking guru, and a die-hard "Mountain boots" fan. I had noticed with disappointment how his feet had gotten narrow, and his toes bent inwards from constant pressure from running shoes and boots, and briefly also prosthetics. I thought is it was permanent damage.

I was pleasantly surprised to hear from his last week that after a few months of barefooting, his feet have now spread back to their natural shape, and his old boots no longer fit him. He is in his upper 40's. Isn't it nice that nature gives you a second chance
Both inspiring cases IMO.
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Old 06.06.2011, 17:39
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

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I found this interesting as pre surgery I never ran heal first (I was a gymnast for many years so ran on my toes) but since the op I became a heal striker. Since I started running again I have been doing my best not to run heal first and have shortened my stride as well. Maybe I should try running on my toes again .
As a back up to that, I decided to have a look for some studies and found this one

I guess plenty changed in 10 years since this was my day job
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  #34  
Old 06.06.2011, 17:47
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

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As a back up to that, I decided to have a look for some studies and found this one

I guess plenty changed in 10 years since this was my day job
Can you translate the study summary into english

My toes are beginning to spread as well Niranjan - my calves are lengthening - I can squat down now where as I never used to be able to do that

I have no desire to grow a beard or eat lentils though - so I think it is safe to say I've not gone all hippy.

I am up to an hour of barefoot running now - and no longer have the problems I used to have. Except for calves which know they are working harder!
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Old 06.06.2011, 17:51
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

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Spot on!

To give a brief history of running,

First there were people who just ran, like they ate and had sex, no one showed them videos or coaching how to do it. It was normal and natural.

Next came mega-corporations (Nikes and Asics) with loads of marketing budgets, they peddled snake oils for some 2-3 decades by way of "specialist running shoes". College drop-outs who couldn't excel in sports either ended up at their stores peddling what scientists have convincingly demonstrated as a load of tripe (and I mean people with Phds and sports science degrees, and not your self-styled running coaches and masseurs kind of scientists .

And in 2008 came Christopher Doughall who started the barefoot extremism, in his bid to up his sales made exaggerated claims about barefooting. At least some of us thought it would reduce the consumerism that was afflicting running industry, but alas, the companies were smarter, they then started peddling "barefoot-shoes" (can anyone spot the irony of it ). Giving the rest of us a bad name as barefoot hippies.


OP: If I were you, I wouldn't bother much about shoes; in most cases they are like homeopathic drugs/placebos; harmless and useless in the vast majority of cases. Well-respected scientists who've spent their lives in this research have admitted the jury is still out on the relative efficacy of barefoot and supported shoes, science has just not evolved enough to understand the subject completely. Only in genuine cases (e.g. surgery, congenital defects, are prosthetics warranted)

  1. If you are convinced you have serious misalignment due to surgery or decades of faulty use of your legs, and if your primary goal is health, running being just a means to an end, then I would suggest you run very little and instead take up hiking uphills, cycling too, maybe until you are fit and light enough to run (sorry we have no idea of your age, condition, history, so it is presumptuous advice). If you have a genuine condition, you shouldn't be listening to amateurs on an internet forum in the first place, you need an orthopedic doctor.
  2. If on the other hand you feel it is a minor thing, and if you really love running, just buy a light weight shoe that doesn't claim fancy features, and ease into running gradually and run normally as your instinct and common sense dictates. There is no right or wrong style, we are all different. Personally I feel 5k is quite adequate if you are running for general health, so don't fret if you can't go more.
Maybe not what you were wanting to hear, but it might be food for others' thoughts.
Cheers,
N

Edit: In the interest of full disclosure, I too own a pair of Vibrams since 2009, because I like experimenting, and it feels kind of cool to wear one, the same reason why people wear hair gels and have tattoos. I use mine for special occasions.
Lol, well I actually intended (as per usual) to be flippant and contrary, but it seems as if I hit the nail on the head. So in conclusion, if something hurts when you do it, stop doing it.

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  #36  
Old 06.06.2011, 18:21
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

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Find a piece of dog turd free grass (tricky I know) and just run naturally, you won't be landing on your heels for sure. Now try a few laps of a running track or wood chip trail and notice how your calves burn a little, that will be your legs running properly for the first time in ages. We all ran around barefoot as kids, do you remember having joint aches back then?
Would running on firm sand also be suitable ?
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Old 06.06.2011, 18:30
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

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Would running on firm sand also be suitable ?
The real barefoot gurus advocate running on the hardest, rockiest, most uneven surface you can find - and then only do completely barefoot - and build up from just 5 minutes.

I'll stick to minimalist shoes thank you very much!

Running barefoot on ANY surface is good - even if you only do so once a week. They key though is remember:

1) Fore/mid foot-strike
2) Toes down
3) Heal down

AND keep the knees bent and the calves loose and relaxed.
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Old 06.06.2011, 18:34
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

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Can you translate the study summary into english
Not sure if that was a serious request or not, but in case it was, I'll have a go, sure. Here's the link again to avoid hunting within the thread...

Basically, they did a study of 3 groups - group 1 was people who had chronic ankle instability, group 2 was people who had suffered an ankle sprain but did not have chronic ankle instability, and group 3 is people who had no problems (control group).

The reason for the study was to see whether typical ankle / foot biomechanics made it more likely for ankle problems to re-occur.

They checked for the ratio of medial:lateral pressure for all three groups. (This basically shows you how the foot is "balancing" during the footstrike - if there is more lateral pressure, then it shows you have some side-to-side correction going on - if there is more medial pressure, then it shows that the footstrike is rolling through as expected [note my careful avoidance of the word "normally"])

Group 1 was found to have a higher ratio of lateral pressure (e.g. more side to side balancing going on) at the foot strike and also a more noticeable "roll" laterally through the foot strike compared to group 2 and 3. So, generally, more twisting going on for the ankle to have to deal with, hence more risk of recurring injury.

Their recommendation is (somewhat derivative) in that they advise finding ways to decrease the amount of "rearfoot inversion" (e.g. the inward rotation of the foot) - they don't mention eversion (which is the opposite, outward rotation / supination) but I'd imagine the same would apply there too.

Most of the incomprehensible stuff is my bread and butter (me being a maths nerd) but in general it's just standard statements regarding analysis of variance and confirming that the stats provided are scientifically valid - more info here for any other geeks to look at

So in conclusion the study does seem to back up the idea of moving to a midfoot / forefoot strike from a biomechanical perspective.
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Old 06.06.2011, 18:40
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

Here's the C25k / Couch to 5km site.

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Old 06.06.2011, 18:47
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

hi, my name is Brian, i have experience in runnning and training a triathlete. have you checked to see if you suffer from any other pains or weakness's in the your leg. A weakness or tightness perhaps in your calf muscles, any pain during or post session in your knee. such tightness's can create instability causing more forces to act on the joints or other muscles to do the work creating inbalances and soreness. If so i would reccommend 1 of 2 things or in the long term do both. proprioception exercises such as balance exercises where you perform normal exercises on an unstable base or do the balance exercise on there own to build a solid base. (im sure of the name of the equipment but there like up turned bowls) these will give u a better sense of balance laterally, frontal and thru 360 degrees and make you more aware of your body statically & dynamically. Also which shud b part of any athletes regime, is core work, a strong core will make the rest of your body, your legs, work more efficeintly and provide better posture for better body position in running. perform atleast 1 static session, ie. the plank, and 1 dynamic or u can builld up the dynamic exercises, session a week, ie. side plank twists. also for a greater workout and as part of your warm up perform 1 or 2 core exercises before u go for your run.
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