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  #41  
Old 06.06.2011, 17:51
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

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Not sure if that was a serious request or not, but in case it was, I'll have a go, sure. Here's the link again to avoid hunting within the thread...

So in conclusion the study does seem to back up the idea of moving to a midfoot / forefoot strike from a biomechanical perspective.
It was!!
So thanks - and thanks!!

Sometimes the scientist types need to be able to communicate to normal people - something highlighted many moons ago by Flanders and Swann

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One of the great problems in the world today is undoubtedly this problem of not being able to talk to scientists, because we don't understand science. They can't talk to us because they don't understand anything else, poor dears. This problem, I think it was C.P. Snow first raised it - Sir Charles Snow in private life - in his books Science and Government and so on. Mind you, I haven't read it. I'm waiting for the play to come.
He says, quite rightly, he says it's no good going up to a scientist and saying to him as you would to anybody else, you know, "good morning, how are you, lend me a quid" and so on, I mean he'll just glare at you or make a rude retort or something. No, you have to speak to him in language that he'll understand. I mean you go up to him and say something like, "Ah, H2SO4 Professor! Don't synthesize anything I wouldn't synthesize. Oh, and the reciprocal of pi to your good wife." Now, this he will understand.
Snow says that nobody can consider themselves educated who doesn't know at least the basic language of science. I mean things like Sir Edward Boyle's Law, for example - the greater the external pressure, the greater the volume of hot air. The simple . . . or . . . the Second Law of Thermodynamics, this is very important. I wasn't so much shocked the other day to discover that my partner not only doesn't know the Second Law, he doesn't even know the First Law of Thermodynamics!
Going back to first principles, very briefly: thermodynamics, of course, is derived from two Greek words, thermos, meaning hot - if you don't drop it - and dynamics, meaning dynamic, work; and thermodynamics is simply the science of heat and work, and the relationships between the two as laid down in the Laws of Thermodynamics, which may be expressed in the following simple terms - after me, Donald.
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  #42  
Old 06.06.2011, 17:56
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

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If so i would reccommend 1 of 2 things or in the long term do both. proprioception exercises such as balance exercises where you perform normal exercises on an unstable base or do the balance exercise on there own to build a solid base. (im sure of the name of the equipment but there like up turned bowls) these will give u a better sense of balance laterally, frontal and thru 360 degrees and make you more aware of your body statically & dynamically. Also which shud b part of any athletes regime, is core work, a strong core will make the rest of your body, your legs, work more efficeintly and provide better posture for better body position in running.
I couldn't explain it that well , but that's exactly what Pilates is about.
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  #43  
Old 06.06.2011, 19:52
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

I totally recommend the C25k programme for anyone who is wanting to start running. Thanks for positng the link UM.

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Here's the C25k / Couch to 5km site.

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  #44  
Old 06.06.2011, 20:01
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

Thanks Brian. I think you mean a Bosu ball for the upturned bowl. My core strength is a bit rubbish but I am also working on that.

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hi, my name is Brian, i have experience in runnning and training a triathlete. have you checked to see if you suffer from any other pains or weakness's in the your leg. A weakness or tightness perhaps in your calf muscles, any pain during or post session in your knee. such tightness's can create instability causing more forces to act on the joints or other muscles to do the work creating inbalances and soreness. If so i would reccommend 1 of 2 things or in the long term do both. proprioception exercises such as balance exercises where you perform normal exercises on an unstable base or do the balance exercise on there own to build a solid base. (im sure of the name of the equipment but there like up turned bowls) these will give u a better sense of balance laterally, frontal and thru 360 degrees and make you more aware of your body statically & dynamically. Also which shud b part of any athletes regime, is core work, a strong core will make the rest of your body, your legs, work more efficeintly and provide better posture for better body position in running. perform atleast 1 static session, ie. the plank, and 1 dynamic or u can builld up the dynamic exercises, session a week, ie. side plank twists. also for a greater workout and as part of your warm up perform 1 or 2 core exercises before u go for your run.
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  #45  
Old 07.06.2011, 00:19
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

Ah, evil thoughts back in my head. Was going to the proverbial overpronator with thick shoes route, started to adjust my stride to mid-foot, got rid of heel strike, increased my cadence to 180, and now you guys are getting me onto the whole barefoot track? My little German head will explode eventually ...

It's all good.
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  #46  
Old 07.06.2011, 10:29
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

First, congrats on your determination to start running again. It is great that you don’t want to give up and that you are open to advice. A couple of years ago the orthopaedist I went to strongly recommended surgery for my chronically unstable and often painful ankle. I turned him down and began exercises to strengthen my ankle. Then came an accident, shoulder surgery etc. and a few months ago, though the shoulder is not fully back, I began to get back in shape. I took the minimalist approach after doing a lot of reading on it: studies, how-to etc.

The result: I gave away, just last week, all my old running shoes, I have thrown out all the support thingies in my shoes that I used to need to walk without pain, and I haven’t even come close to spraining my ankle. So, obviously, I would recommend the minimalist approach but with a few caveats. Read up about it and if you choose to do it, do it right. If you are not very body-aware (meaning able to feel and make minor adjustments to your body position etc), or even if you are, get help. You are making an investment in your health and well-being so getting some professional help would be well-worth the money (more so than the CHF 300 for running shoes and CHF 400+ for orthotics, from my point of view, of course ). My body is still not balanced because of my shoulder and that leads to different strains being put on different muscles, joints etc. I have just started working with a yoga teacher/physiotherapist who is doing a great job in helping me focus on the alignment in my body and stretch out what needs to stretched. Maybe yoga isn’t your thing but there are other options out there which will help you learn what you may be doing wrong in terms of posture, unbalanced muscles, running style etc that is leading to some of the problems you’re having.
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  #47  
Old 08.06.2011, 13:07
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

Does having a dodgy shoulder really affect your running so much? I also have a shoulder/right arm issue but never figured that into my running. With the physio I saw for that problem I worked a lot on my posture but that also is an ongoing thing. So left hip + right shoulder problems, does that equal balance or just totally out of whack?

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My body is still not balanced because of my shoulder and that leads to different strains being put on different muscles, joints etc. I have just started working with a yoga teacher/physiotherapist who is doing a great job in helping me focus on the alignment in my body and stretch out what needs to stretched. Maybe yoga isn’t your thing but there are other options out there which will help you learn what you may be doing wrong in terms of posture, unbalanced muscles, running style etc that is leading to some of the problems you’re having.
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  #48  
Old 08.06.2011, 13:34
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

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First, congrats on your determination to start running again. It is great that you don’t want to give up and that you are open to advice.
I second this (on both points, plus the Yoga advice)! This is a really interesting discussion and it's always good to see it come back to helping make running: easier, less painful, possible after an injury, a path to better health, etc.

Some food for thought:

The concept that people can run naturally (e.g. just run like a kid) in an efficient manner is often accepted in minimalist running communities, but does anyone think this about swimming? Or how about rock climbing? In those two activities, both surely done for survival in primal days and both based on using our bodies, is efficiency and proper technique something we’re simply born with and return to just by doing it "naturally"?

Sure, it’s possible for a brief period (fight or flight) to have an explosive reaction in running, swimming, or rock climbing (to escape that lion) without any skill, but to carry on for more than a few minutes while making progress and not reaching exhaustion or injury, I would argue that skill and technique is required and that it’s not in-born.

I love natural running and I’m very happy to have learned to change my technique from my slow cadence, heel-striking days. For me, the change didn't happen immediately after slipping on FiveFingers and trying to run "naturally". Again, just my personal experience, but my change came first through emulation of efficient desert runners in Morocco and later through training with Dr. Romanov (Pose Method creator). It took repetition and drills and was a months-long process to get right (and a journey that continues every time I run), but it enabled me to run injury-free, much more efficiently and without reliance on over-built shoes and orthotics that were supposed to "fix" me.

On equipment & tying back to the swimming and climbing question: high-end triathlon wetsuits and super-sticky climbing shoes only go so far in helping someone with poor swimming or climbing technique. The hydrodynamic properties of the wetsuit don’t matter when you thrash in the water and the rubber compound in the shoes doesn’t help when you climb only by muscling yourself up with your arms. I see running the same way (as both a coach and a runner): the wrong shoes can get in the way (leading to injury and under-development) and the right shoes can help, but not in and of themselves.

On orthotics, for years I had podiatrists and chiropractors in the U.S. try to solve my back, hip and knee problems with custom orthotics and motion control shoes. My problem wasn’t a lack of orthotics (or any of the other reasons that video analysis from running shoe stores "exposed"). My problem was poor running technique, too much weight on my body and not enough time to develop my body as and once I lost the weight. No doctor or running shop salesperson ever said that … they only pointed me to different shoes, different orthotics, etc.

The best long-term solution for me was to rely less on equipment and more on developing 1) technique & feel and 2) fitness (yoga, core conditioning, nutritional foundation).
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  #49  
Old 10.06.2011, 12:19
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

Some interesting posts there; I wish most coaches were as thoughtful and well-read as Jeff. If I ever go to a coach I know who I will go to

That said, I have one point of disagreement or rather reserved agreement and it is this: a belief commonly held among the running coaches/clients communities is that in order to be able to run injury-free you need to go to a specialist. Nothing wrong with that; but it needs a caveat. As I see, recreational runners can be broadly classified into two categories:

  • Type 1 who are either recovering from injuries/surgeries/obesity or those wanting to move on to extreme sports such as ultra running and
  • Type 2 who are normal ordinary people who don’t have fascinating tales to tell about their running (much as some would like to, if they could ), but just keep doing moderate amounts of running with no specific injury to talk about; people who have been generally fit all their lives.
Now what we write is shaped by our personal experiences/encounters. Jeff’s is a famous example of someone who was 30 kgs overweight and progressed to running ultra-marathons and other extreme stuff. Christopher McDoughall’s also has a similar background: he was unfit and tired of injuries and endless rounds to doctors and shoe specialists before he discovered the freedom of running minimalistic. My feeling is, the kind of clients attracted to running coaches mostly fall in Type 1. Clearly the advice that you should to minimalism under proper guidance, buying super-specialist shoes designed to help you move from specialist shoes to generic shoe() applies to them.

Now because Type 1 are generally the most vocal runners, one may think they constitute the whole world. But actually there are many runners who don’t fit that description. For example me; I have been running moderate amounts for some 17 years now (just that after joining EF I briefly had a fling with extreme running); at age 37, never have I been injured in any sport I have done so far, including running. I mean nothing beyond sore muscles, minor bruises and cuts, nothing that warranted seeing a doctor/therapist.

Likewise I know many people who were once die-hard fans of fancy/branded shoes but shifted to minimalism pretty easily in 3-4 months, without outside help.
Just by reading the recent threads I can name Assassin, Kate, Neil, and many that Idon't know personally.

So to conclude, I would refer to an excellent snippet posted by Coach Jeff in the other thread, "On this point, he (Dr. Liebermann) and all of the scientists agree. Humans may have been built to run barefoot, “but we did not evolve to run barefoot with bad form.”’ Those of us with bad form (or having competitive sporting goals) definitely need professional help. Others may also benefit, but I doubt it is essential. Maybe it is worthwhile to try to go minimal on your own and see if it works for you and seek specialists help if you face a problem (it is a life’s philosophy, not just about running)
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Old 13.06.2011, 16:48
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

http://www.foothealthcare.com/shop/footorthotics
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  #51  
Old 29.06.2011, 14:25
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Re: Running & "Over-Pronation" Advice needed

Just a wee update. I went for my first run this morning since making the original post as my ankle is feeling much better. I am still running in the same shoes (no spare cash to buy new ones at the mo) but I have adapted my style of running to more of the barefoot/minimal technique. I watched the videos Advtur (thank you!) posted on YouTube and have based my new technique on them. It went well, no pain during or afterwards but boy does it work your muscles more. I didn't run as far as I normally would in the time but that is fine, once this way of running becomes natural & I don't have to think about it the distance & speed will come.

Thanks again for all of your contributions, they were all appreciated.
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