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  #41  
Old 10.09.2018, 10:02
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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She is quite a remarkable person. It must suck when the country she represents treats you like crap.
Of course she a remarkable person, being one of the greatest tennis players in history (she doesn't need to be the "nicest", neither on court nor in other situations), but that was not the point here. As for her being treated badly in her country, I don't doubt she had it tough being a person of colour. In the meantime I think she has received quite a lot of recognition and support, if only to judge by the public's reactions to all this circus. You think it's a hidden trauma that provoked this meltdown? That sounds pretty racist to me.

IMHO, it was hard to accept the opponent was way better in that match. A lot of pressure on her, and on anyone in tennis, to prove their worth and all that, to break yet another record, to be the best one, the greatest one. I understand.

But she made it about sexism when it wasn't the best moment, when a 20 year old player was winning cleanly and fairly, and when the umpire was actually right, even her coach admitted. Many ex-great players would support what've written, no truer words than what Margaret Court and others, have already said
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Williams felt she had been treated more harshly than a man would in the same situation, but Court had little sympathy for the 36-year-old.


"We always had to go by the rules," said Court, in quotes reported by The Australian.

"It's sad for the sport when a player tries to become bigger than the rules."

"Because the young player outplayed her in the first set, I think pressure got her more than anything."
https://www.sportingnews.com/au/tenn...f1euhlivjzbz60

Anyway, I guess we can't discuss these things anymore, can we. Your reply is quite typical, sobeit.
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  #42  
Old 10.09.2018, 10:09
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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I 100% agree to your summary, except that I honestly don't see the sexism.
Apologies if I was unclear - I said it was hard to discern any sexism there, as she did break the rules three times - would they have always been enforced if it was a guy? Who knows. As I say, this isn't the best example to use.

Is there sexism on the tour though? Undoubtedly - see the Cornet thing recently for proof of that.

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Anyway, I guess we can't discuss these things anymore, can we.
Interesting position to take whilst discussing such things, on a forum
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  #43  
Old 10.09.2018, 10:17
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Interesting position to take whilst discussing such things, on a forum
Yeah, right. I'll take a step back and watch all the apologists having a fest.
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  #44  
Old 10.09.2018, 10:20
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Yeah, right. I'll take a step back and watch all the apologists having a fest.
Don't worry, nobody is de-platforming you
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  #45  
Old 10.09.2018, 10:21
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Don't worry, nobody is de-platforming you
Lol, the irony. Did you even watch the match or just messing around here?
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  #46  
Old 10.09.2018, 10:26
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Lol, the irony. Did you even watch the match or just messing around here?
Sure I watched it - I gave a pretty detailed opinion of what happened a few posts ago.

I didn't get why you were moaning about not being able to discuss it, whilst discussing it.
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  #47  
Old 10.09.2018, 10:33
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Sure I watched it - I gave a pretty detailed opinion of what happened a few posts ago.

I didn't get why you were moaning about not being able to discuss it, whilst discussing it.
I didn't get why Serena's "situation" (female and black) and her previous great achievements nobody would ever contest had to be brought up either. No-one would ever contest what Serena's achieved in her long career.

Frankly, had I payed to see the match and had I been there among the public I would have left as soon as she started the circus. It was terribly unfair for Osaka and for the public (even though obviously the American public had a different opinion), if you ask me.
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  #48  
Old 10.09.2018, 10:44
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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I didn't get why Serena's "situation" (female and black) and her previous great achievements nobody would ever contest had to be brought up either.


Facts: She received three correct penalties for various rule violations.


American reality: "Serena Williams' U.S. Open loss may be the grossest example of sports sexism yet" That's CBS news, not some fringe media. (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/serena-...ts-sexism-yet/)


If you don't want to get a penalty, don't smash your racket or insult the officials. I don't get the "insulting officials is part of the game" attitude. It really isn't. Because tennis isn't football and even in football do players get way stronger penalties than the 17k Ms Williams got this time.
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  #49  
Old 10.09.2018, 10:51
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Facts: She received three correct penalties for various rule violations.


American reality: "Serena Williams' U.S. Open loss may be the grossest example of sports sexism yet" That's CBS news, not some fringe media. (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/serena-...rts-sexism-yet/)


If you don't want to get a penalty, don't smash your racket or insult the officials. I don't get the "insulting officials is part of the game" attitude. It really isn't. Because tennis isn't football and even in football do players get way stronger penalties than the 17k Ms Williams got this time.
Exactly, I've read a few "gems" myself and that's why I had a strong reaction.
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  #50  
Old 10.09.2018, 11:03
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Facts: She received three correct penalties for various rule violations.


American reality: "Serena Williams' U.S. Open loss may be the grossest example of sports sexism yet" That's CBS news, not some fringe media. (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/serena-...ts-sexism-yet/)


If you don't want to get a penalty, don't smash your racket or insult the officials. I don't get the "insulting officials is part of the game" attitude. It really isn't. Because tennis isn't football and even in football do players get way stronger penalties than the 17k Ms Williams got this time.

And is already clear, it's hardly her first time. She has repeated issues and was even on probation at the time of the 2011 incident that this thread began on which carried the risk of being banned from the tour. Tennis has a lot of formality to it, for good or bad and while the sport might have been borne out of class/privilege there is a certain modicum of respect that the sport tries to exude and Serena has been guilty of violating the code of conduct more than McEnroe who is pretty much known for being a jerk in tennis. Yet she claims sexism?



It's scandalous from her really, complete with an absolutely bonkers tirade she spewed out during the match & after - even invoking being a mother


Nutter and to boot, she ruined what should've been a special victory for the Naomi Osaka. A lot of grace that was on display, none of which came from Serena
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  #51  
Old 10.09.2018, 11:10
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Nutter and to boot, she ruined what should've been a special victory for the Naomi Osaka. A lot of grace that was on display, none of which came from Serena
In all fairness to Serena, she was pretty gracious after the event. She congratulated Osaka saying she played well and was the better player and even tried to get the baying crowd to stop their booing antics - they need to have a word with themselves too, the US Open crowd has to be the worst on the circuit.
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  #52  
Old 10.09.2018, 11:12
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Tennis has a lot of formality to it, for good or bad and while the sport might have been borne out of class/privilege there is a certain modicum of respect that the sport tries to exude and Serena has been guilty of violating the code of conduct more than McEnroe who is pretty much known for being a jerk in tennis.
And I guess we just reached the root of the problem imho. Maybe it's a question of perception for some of us.
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  #53  
Old 10.09.2018, 11:27
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

Origins of tennis has a formality to it, no question, that many are either unaware of or simply are turned off by and that's completely understandable. While the game may have been borne out of privilege/class/social strata I also believe the rules reflects a respect to the sport, opponents, umpires, fans etc. And there simply is A LOT of formality to tennis

In the long run however, I do agree with Serena's coach, analysts and most fans & players - they should ultimately allow signals/coaching provided it does not delay the match or flow of games. Not timeouts per se as that would be a significant hindrance and dramatically alter a player's rhythm/momentum. In that regard, it's definitely a cheat, IMHO. But signals? Not a cheat IMHO so, sure, why not change the rules but for now, that's not how the rules currently are. There is quite a bit of formality to the game that few other big sports have and there a long list of ways the tennis game is unlike most others. Although you could draw some parallels to another sport of privilege, golf or polo.

I think that's why there is a lot of concern about the changing format to Davis Cup competition which is very controversial atm in the world of tennis. Davis Cup used to be the 'World Cup' sort of competition in a very formal tennis game. Matches had people really animated in the stands etc., even during points - it's surreal to recall some epic battles back in the day, since generally that's a big no no in tennis all over the world with Wimbledon being the most formal. Anyway, I digress. I don't like all the rules and no question evolution is important but at the core of the game, I don't want to see some changes take place to diminish the grace of the game.

To that end, I have often despised how Serena has been in that regard. I'm sure she & Venus likely had to endure some real class racism starting from an early age - no question and I couldn't imagine how terrible that had to be. Of course, you can go two ways from there, you can make your mark while trying to fit in or make your mark while giving it the finger for a majority of her career. It wasn't until later in her career that she became more popular, she really was viewed as a pariah (Along with Venus and their father). She came close on several occasions to even being banned from the sport and that's to say nothing of the interviews & soundbites of her disrespecting opponents etc. I have never liked her which has nothing to do with the tennis side of her of which there can be no argument that she's the most successful women's tennis champion of all time.

Nearly 20 years or more on the tour, no other woman will play that long again and she has nearly the whole package in terms of the technical side of the game. I don't think she is a natural or creative on the court which doesn't sound important/interesting but the game has a certain grace to it that seems to evoke artistry from the most memorable champions. I have never seen it from her or Venus. They beat you with power, speed and fitness. In terms of being athletes in women's tennis, they have no peer. I guess that's why I find both the women's and men's tour a bit dull atm, there are no personalities or artists in the game. It's pure athleticism & advanced technologies now. I suppose they'll eventually have to modify the game in some way to encourage more artistry again else the sport will lose it's appeal
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  #54  
Old 10.09.2018, 11:30
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Apologies if I was unclear - I said it was hard to discern any sexism there, as she did break the rules three times - would they have always been enforced if it was a guy? Who knows. As I say, this isn't the best example to use.
Yes since ever Venus left the WTA and now plays in the ATP with boys she is constantly shunned and marginalized.

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Is there sexism on the tour though? Undoubtedly - see the Cornet thing recently for proof of that.
On the tour? If played pay WTA and its associated ITF rules? No, the attire issue was mostly a Grand Slam and USTA rule issue.
http://www.wtatennis.com/news/wta-st...code-violation

Just like in Chess, the US thinks once again they have to make up there own rules and charge people for getting and reading them:
ITF https://www.itftennis.com/officiatin...of-tennis.aspx vs. USTA https://www.ustashop.com/product/912...-2018-handbook
and
FIDE https://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.h...&view=category vs. US CHESS http://www.uschess.org/content/view/7864/221/
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What?
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  #55  
Old 10.09.2018, 11:34
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

As a bit of an aside, even in the UK, there was huge racism / sexism when the Williamses hit the scene.

A running joke, almost every Friday evening on They Think it's All Over was how big Serena / Venus' cock was in comparison to Tim Heman's. This was viewed as totally funny and totally acceptable on the BBC - thankfully we've journeyed a long way from then...or at least I hope we have.

I really enjoyed TTIAO in the day and didn't really think about that too much (I was about 16 at the time I guess), but looking back now, there were a good few jokes that really weren't cool.
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  #56  
Old 10.09.2018, 11:35
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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In all fairness to Serena, she was pretty gracious after the event. She congratulated Osaka saying she played well and was the better player and even tried to get the baying crowd to stop their booing antics - they need to have a word with themselves too, the US Open crowd has to be the worst on the circuit.

Part of the US Open's charm has historically been how different the crowd is than the other Grand Slams - of course, booing is bad form during a trophy presentation regardless. And, no, I don't believe Serena gets a pass for steering an already frenzied crowd from her prior antics to cheer an opponent whose first grand slam moment was hijacked by those very antics earlier.


Serena has been on the tour for 20 years, no one has less excuse to not understand the rules much less have another meltdown over them. It was disgraceful in all aspects, there's no walking back from that apart from apologizing and taking a step back. Not the nonsensical pressy she had after
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  #57  
Old 10.09.2018, 11:37
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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As a bit of an aside, even in the UK, there was huge racism / sexism when the Williamses hit the scene.

A running joke, almost every Friday evening on They Think it's All Over was how big Serena / Venus' cock was in comparison to Tim Heman's. This was viewed as totally funny and totally acceptable on the BBC - thankfully we've journeyed a long way from then...or at least I hope we have.
.
There's still "racism" in the media when someone viewed as "pariah" reaches top levels. Uncouth comments related to players' nationality and such are still OK. If we are to be fair, let's be fair then.
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Old 10.09.2018, 11:39
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Part of the US Open's charm has historically been how different the crowd is than the other Grand Slams - of course, booing is bad form during a trophy presentation regardless. And, no, I don't believe Serena gets a pass for steering an already frenzied crowd from her prior antics to cheer an opponent whose first grand slam moment was hijacked by those very antics earlier.


Serena has been on the tour for 20 years, no one has less excuse to not understand the rules much less have another meltdown over them. It was disgraceful in all aspects, there's no walking back from that apart from apologizing and taking a step back. Not the nonsensical pressy she had after
Charm is not something I associate with booing a 20 year old winning her first GS title. You want to boo the umpire, fine, I guess, but booing an opponent who did NOTHING to deserve it is scummy behavior and about as charming as Harvey Weinstein.
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Old 10.09.2018, 11:41
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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There's still "racism" in the media when someone viewed as "pariah" reaches top levels. Uncouth comments related to players' nationality and such are still OK. If we are to be fair, let's be fair then.
Putting racism in quotes does your argument a disservice. There weren't so much racist undertones as overt racist overtones. Two big black women are like men, aren't they, lol.

Funny how the contemporary big white girls like Mauresmo and Davenport got labelled lesbians (also not cool, of course), whilst the black girls got labelled as men.
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  #60  
Old 10.09.2018, 12:06
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Putting racism in quotes does your argument a disservice. There weren't so much racist undertones as overt racist overtones. Two big black women are like men, aren't they, lol.

Funny how the contemporary big white girls like Mauresmo and Davenport got labelled lesbians (also not cool, of course), whilst the black girls got labelled as men.
I put it in quotes because there were various comments and nuances I wouldn't exactly classify as racist. Anyway, your examples remind me of the times when apparently open jokes about Navratilova's gender and sexual orientation were "funny"...don't think much has changed, only what's considered OK and what not.
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