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  #101  
Old 11.09.2018, 18:47
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

I have the feeling I just read an article from Washington Post. Sorry, terrifisch, there are a lot of false claims there. But now I see the point Treverus was trying to make all along. Americans can't accept defeat. It's OK, we love you that way...:-)
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  #102  
Old 11.09.2018, 19:09
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

I don't read the Washington Post but please, elaborate on the "false claims"?
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  #103  
Old 11.09.2018, 19:14
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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I don't read the Washington Post but please, elaborate on the "false claims"?
Really? Strange. For instance - something I know well - Darren Cahill has the face of a poker player in most matches to begin with. When he coached at Australian Open, Simona got a huge fine but never contested the decision. Her problem is that she doesn't follow his instructions even when they're allowed...:ROFL: Their relation had a few downs specifically because of this. If I were him, I'd have given up coaching her long ago. Not Darren. Perhaps you don't know her fierce stubbornness. But please, never let the facts stand in the way of a good outrage.
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  #104  
Old 11.09.2018, 19:20
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

Then why look up at your box at all if you think you know better than your coach? You look up at your box for support. She constantly looked at her coach during the French Open and frankly, you can have a poker face and still give gestures/signals.
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  #105  
Old 11.09.2018, 19:28
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Then why look up at your box at all if you think you know better than your coach? You look up at your box for support. She constantly looked at her coach during the French Open and frankly, you can have a poker face and still give gestures/signals.
Through telepathic powers, maybe. Had he coached, she would have been penalised for sure. End of the argument, and proved by real facts.
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  #106  
Old 11.09.2018, 19:42
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

So...Let me get this straight... You really believe that only those issued violations for coaching, receive coaching? That sounds rather naive as much comes down to the umpire officiating - and whether that umpire chose/chooses to address the matter.
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  #107  
Old 11.09.2018, 19:51
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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So...Let me get this straight... You really believe that only those issued violations for coaching, receive coaching? That sounds rather naive as much comes down to the umpire officiating - and whether that umpire chose/chooses to address the matter.
I am sure there are some inconsistencies in the way umpires behave, of which Serena too must have benefitted in her long career....We're going in circles again - what other umpires and other players would have done, could have done in other matches is not the real issue here. The issue is that Serena stopped playing and started a inflammatory argument with an umpire that took a correct decision.
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  #108  
Old 11.09.2018, 20:04
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Residency =/= nationality
Indeed, but she is in fact a US citizen, and not just a resident.

Tom
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  #109  
Old 11.09.2018, 20:06
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

And I and others (including tennis professionals on the tour who are not just American) will argue, that the umpire did not handle the situation well nor make the correct decision. So let's agree to disagree
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  #110  
Old 11.09.2018, 20:23
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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And I and others (including tennis professionals on the tour who are not just American) will argue, that the umpire did not handle the situation well nor make the correct decision. So let's agree to disagree
Fair enough. However, what I cannot ever, agree with, is the insinuations that Naomi Osaka didn't win cleanly and neatly. She was so obviously the better player in that match. All of them have some moments when they feel the umpires were unfair, most manage the situation and keep fighting till the end, some not. Serena is not the first case. E.g. - there was another ugly scene quite recently - Karolina Pliskova damaging the umpire's chair in a temper tantrum. I guess it happens.....
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  #111  
Old 11.09.2018, 20:42
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

I was extremely impressed with Osaka's poise throughout the match and in particular, in the last game. She is a force to be reckoned with and has a great future!
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  #112  
Old 11.09.2018, 20:47
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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I was extremely impressed with Osaka's poise throughout the match and in particular, in the last game. She is a force to be reckoned with and has a great future!
Totally agree! It's funny, she could have been the next Serena of the USA, but I doubt she'll renounce her Japanese citizenship after this final.
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  #113  
Old 11.09.2018, 21:17
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

Very talented stroke wise and a great athlete! What a future she has and no doubt the WTA need more like her
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  #114  
Old 12.09.2018, 00:19
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

Am I the only one who came on the thread, looked at the first page and only then noticed it was started in 2011... and was referencing a what feels like a carbon-copy of what happened last weekend?


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  #115  
Old 12.09.2018, 08:25
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Am I the only one who came on the thread, looked at the first page and only then noticed it was started in 2011... and was referencing a what feels like a carbon-copy of what happened last weekend?


Here comes the umpire, getting his excuses in early
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  #116  
Old 12.09.2018, 08:45
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Am I the only one who came on the thread, looked at the first page and only then noticed it was started in 2011... and was referencing a what feels like a carbon-copy of what happened last weekend?


Same here, didn't notice until I read a few posts. Quite remarkable.

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Here comes the umpire, getting his excuses in early
haha, very good catch!
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  #117  
Old 12.09.2018, 09:36
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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American reality: "Serena Williams' U.S. Open loss may be the grossest example of sports sexism yet" That's CBS news, not some fringe media. (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/serena-...ts-sexism-yet/)
.
Another example of the said American reality

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0511db3e30cdd
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Let’s examine the match again.

The tension was already high for both players before Williams’ clash with umpire Carlos Ramos. She was going after her 24th Grand Slam title to tie the career record for women with the legendary Margaret Court. Osaka was vying for her first Grand Slam title and seeking to become the first Japanese player ― male or female ― to win such an event.

But even under those pressure-cooker conditions, Williams reacted relatively calmly to Ramos’ first violation call, according to footage of the match.

Ramos claimed she illegally communicated with her coach, but she sternly and politely denied it.

“I understand why you may have thought that was coaching but I’m telling you it’s not,” Williams told him. “I don’t cheat to win. I’d rather lose.”

Later on the sidelines, Williams could be seen communicating with Ramos ― again calmly ― as she stressed she doesn’t cheat. Ramos can be heard saying, “I know that,” to which Williams replied, “Thank you so much.”

Tensions heightened when Williams threw her racket on the ground after missing a shot. The display of frustration moved Ramos to issue another violation ― and this second one meant a point penalty was assessed against Williams.

Confused about the situation, Williams asked for an explanation and began defending herself after Ramos brought up the first violation that he had issued.

Williams argued that the first violation should have been rescinded and ratcheted up her insistence that Ramos apologize for ruling that she had been trying to communicate with her coach. She called him a “liar,” as well as a “thief” for the point penalty. And she told him he would never umpire another match of hers.

Ramos issued a game penalty against Williams for her rhetoric, prompting her to call for an on-court conference with other Open officials so that she could defend herself further.

“Do you know how many... men do things that are much worse than that? This is not fair,” Williams told the officials. “There’s a lot of men out here who have said a lot of things and because they are men, nothing happens to them.”

At no time did Williams curse at Ramos or the officials, nor did she hurl a ball at them, scream to the crowd or yell at her opponent ― behavior that has been part of other notable tennis breakdowns.

Still, many news stories framed Williams as an angry and overly emotional woman. The Telegraph’s headline said Williams “unleashed furious rant at umpire.” Other articles included mentions of a “meltdown,” an “angry Williams,” a “sore loser,” and an “extraordinary rant.”
I choose to be slightly amused at their lack of objectivity and fairness to protect their hero(s). I find it childish. Their problem is they cannot accept that other players (other than American players) can win because they are better and not because the umpires favour them or whatever. Throwing accusations and mud even at some really decent and honest players is ridiculous but it's part of the "she can't be better because she's not American. We're the best in tennis, everything we do is fair and great. Nobody else can have work ethic and win because they play and follow the rules, they must have done something" mentality. Learning to accept defeat and give credit where credit is due should be part of some coaching program.....probably? Something leads me to believe I am onto something here...;-)
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  #118  
Old 12.09.2018, 09:42
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Another example of the said American reality

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0511db3e30cdd


I choose to be slightly amused at their lack of objectivity and fairness to protect their hero. I find it childish. Their problem is they cannot accept that other players other than American players can win because they are better and not because the umpires favour them or whatever. Throwing accusations and mud even at some really decent and honest players is ridiculous but it's part of the "she can't be better because she's not American".
Objectively, surely the argument should actually be: Umpires, start applying the rules to men (and other women), rather than stop applying them to women/Serena? Serena was rightly punished, but start punishing Nadal and Djoker for their outbursts and time wasting (Nadal)...and start punishing Sharapova for her constant on court coaching, etc etc.

It seems there is both a bit of sexism, but mostly just a lack of consistent application of the rules as plenty of women get off lightly with violations as well as most men. Both would be addressed by a consistent application of the rules.
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  #119  
Old 12.09.2018, 09:55
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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Objectively, surely the argument should actually be: Umpires, start applying the rules to men (and other women), rather than stop applying them to women/Serena? Serena was rightly punished, but start punishing Nadal and Djoker for their outbursts and time wasting (Nadal)...and start punishing Sharapova for her constant on court coaching, etc etc.

It seems there is both a bit of sexism, but mostly just a lack of consistent application of the rules as plenty of women get off lightly with violations as well as most men. Both would be addressed by a consistent application of the rules.
Eh, you'll always have some favourites of the tournaments some umpires constantly spoil...Sharapova was defended and given some free pass even when she broke the most serious rules. Kader Nouni always favoured her for instance. She's still a great player though and I don't try to find excuses for any of them, but that still has nothing to do with interrupting the match because you can't win. As said, Serena too must have benefited from these inconsistencies and biases at times.

But yeah, applying rules constantly should be a great start to change something, not changing rules when it fits you.
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  #120  
Old 12.09.2018, 10:38
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Re: Shockingly bad form from Serena Williams

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1. She was given a warning.
Soft warning is different. Contrary to the official one you're referring to they're not counted.
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2. The umpire is not a rookie, but one of the most experienced ones on the planet. Everyone knows beforehand that he is the type that sticks to the rules.

3. "Some other umpire in some other match allowed players to bend the rule" is not the sort of argument that belongs into the final of a Grand Slam. There are rules, they are relatively clear and we did not have a misunderstanding here in any way: Williams broke them and I am sure she knows them.
You're refuting your own points: you confirm that different umpires apply the rules significantly differently so it's not as simple as "rules are rules".

Like players, umpires are professionals. They are expected to act accordingly and keep their personal attitudes off the court (as much as doable). It's their job, and players shouldn't need to adapt to whichever umpire happens to be on the court. If "rulse are rules", which I fully agree should apply, who's the umpire should be largely irrelevant.

That doesn't make what happened in the final sexist or racist (it probably wasn't). But there appears to be room for improvement.
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