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Old 09.05.2011, 11:15
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Re: vibram five fingers

Advntar - Can you perhaps follow that up with the minimalist shoes that you find do work for trail running?

I know I'm not allow in wanting something that offer the barefoot sensation but with a better level of protection.

One thing I notice though, is that when I run in motion control "slippers" I overpronate - even when the shoes are meant to stop it happening. Slip on the V5Fs and no overpronation - nice straight feet and controlled running.

It might be worth doing a forum "run assessment" - where we could even "employ" you to rate how bad our running techniques are!!
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Old 09.05.2011, 11:29
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Re: vibram five fingers

Just ran my first V5F clad race at Sola in ZH this weekend. Amazing power up the hills and although it was only a short 5km section, felt no muscle pain. Had far more energy left in reserve that I never used.
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Old 09.05.2011, 13:18
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Re: vibram five fingers

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minimalist shoes that you find do work for trail running?

I know I'm not allow in wanting something that offer the barefoot sensation but with a better level of protection.

One thing I notice though, is that when I run in motion control "slippers" I overpronate - even when the shoes are meant to stop it happening. Slip on the V5Fs and no overpronation - nice straight feet and controlled running.
take a look at merrell's new barefoot trail shoe if you can find them
http://www.merrell.com/US/en/Barefoot

they obviously look nothing like V5Fs but to me feel surprisingly similar. I still think that all alternatives will give a very different feel from the 5Fs simply because there is more to the sole and therefore our arches behave very differently. But the sole of the merrells is made by vibram and is quite a bit different from most manufacturers lighter versions of their normal trainers, so I'm hopeful.
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Old 09.05.2011, 14:37
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Re: vibram five fingers

They are also sold in the same shop in the US I was going to next week for the V5Fs
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Old 09.05.2011, 14:49
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Re: vibram five fingers

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They are also sold in the same shop in the US I was going to next week for the V5Fs
Can you please bring me a pair back? Trail Glove any color, I'll get the size to you later bud.
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Old 09.05.2011, 14:55
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Re: vibram five fingers

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Can you please bring me a pair back? Trail Glove any color, I'll get the size to you later bud.
Should be able to slip a pair in - let me know the details of what you want!
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Old 09.05.2011, 16:09
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Re: vibram five fingers

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take a look at merrell's new barefoot trail shoe if you can find them
http://www.merrell.com/US/en/Barefoot
I'd like to get my hands on a pair of these. I've had VFFs for over a year, and regretted purchasing them ever since. They've got extremely poor traction on anything wet, there's so little protection that landing on even a small rock can be extremely painful and can result in bruising, my achilles hurt for close to 6 months after I stopped running in them, and I found having my toes encased and separated to be quite uncomfortable.
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Old 09.05.2011, 16:41
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Re: vibram five fingers

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I'd like to get my hands on a pair of these. I've had VFFs for over a year, and regretted purchasing them ever since. They've got extremely poor traction on anything wet,
I've found the KSOs very good on moisture - however on loose small gravel they have no grip

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there's so little protection that landing on even a small rock can be extremely painful and can result in bruising,
No arguing there - but the Bikilas seem better. The idea of barefoot running is to focus more on where you are putting your feet. And yet at the same time keep your shoulders back and head up. Yep I don't get the contradiction either

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my achilles hurt for close to 6 months after I stopped running in them,
Mine hurt before!! I suspect a lot of it is down to both technique and also intensity. I have taken 6 weeks off running and am now going back in slowly. I don't have any calf/achilles problems in them.

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and I found having my toes encased and separated to be quite uncomfortable.
I thought the same when I started - but now find them incredibly comfortable. They are my shoe of choice for when I wear shorts. I find them so comfortable for long periods of time.

Each to their own I suppose.
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Old 09.05.2011, 16:51
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Re: vibram five fingers

Yep, I've got KSOs.

One other thing about the "Look where you're stepping" mantra is that I run on trails that are oftentimes absolutely covered in gravel and rocks, I can't possibly avoid landing on rocks and if I somehow could, I'd have to gently tiptoe around and then I wouldn't really be running anymore. Also, I think people who say that don't live in Switzerland. When I've got these amazing views all around me I don't want to look at my feet. I'm perfectly willing, even eager, to mix some minimalist running into my routine but not at the expense of running on my favorite types of trails.
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Old 09.05.2011, 16:57
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Re: vibram five fingers

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Yep, I've got KSOs.

One other thing about the "Look where you're stepping" mantra is that I run on trails that are oftentimes absolutely covered in gravel and rocks, I can't possibly avoid landing on rocks and if I somehow could, I'd have to gently tiptoe around and then I wouldn't really be running anymore.
The bikilas definitely offer more protection. I'm going to check out the Merrells in the US - to see what they are like. I've hiked (short) in the KSOs (which was pretty scary going down a slippery surface!) - and run on track and pavement in the Bikilas. I haven't yet hit the trails as I am trying to avoid excessive uphill at the moment.

Assasin also has had less than positive feedback on the the stone front. All of which goes counter to barefoot ted. Time for some more research!

The luna sandels have a 10mm rubber sole for their trail running sandels - so I suspect even the bikilas (at 7.5mm) just don't have enough protection. Waiting on Assasin's komodo feedback!
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Old 09.05.2011, 17:36
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Re: vibram five fingers

I have three pairs, KSO, Bikila and most recently the US only KomodoSport. Although the KomodoSport has a removal softer style (removable) insole, you don't really get any better protection from the rocks and stones, because it's not the edges, rather the general battering of the forefoot that causes the internal foot bruising under the pads. With all due respect to Principia and others here, you can hardly expect a barefoot shoe product to negate the impact of repetitive slamming of your feet against nature's finest rock! Vibrams are really best suited for grass, trail running on dirt tracks or athletic tracks. You can of course run on asphalt, but I only do that to connect to better suited terrain.

It's been almost three months since I started barefoot style only and I'm noticing that my feet are toughening up, the bruising is normal, you can't expect your feet to adapt to a new style in just weeks, you're re-programing years of incorrect technical style. The main thing for me is that all my vital joints; ankles, knees and hips are great, no pain or tweaks even when running at sprint speeds or tackling steep inclines. Hang in there folks!
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Old 09.05.2011, 19:12
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Re: vibram five fingers

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With all due respect to Principia and others here, you can hardly expect a barefoot shoe product to negate the impact of repetitive slamming of your feet against nature's finest rock! Vibrams are really best suited for grass, trail running on dirt tracks or athletic tracks. You can of course run on asphalt, but I only do that to connect to better suited terrain.

It's been almost three months since I started barefoot style only and I'm noticing that my feet are toughening up, the bruising is normal, you can't expect your feet to adapt to a new style in just weeks, you're re-programing years of incorrect technical style. The main thing for me is that all my vital joints; ankles, knees and hips are great, no pain or tweaks even when running at sprint speeds or tackling steep inclines. Hang in there folks!
I must have tough feet already or am doing something different to you lot - no bruising what so ever despite a 2hr run at the weekend. Even if you think you are leaving your feet on the ground for the absolute minimum time my advice is to, try picking them up even faster, not to mention not slamming them down hard in the first place (if that isn't already obvious). A really light, fast, touchdown seems to be key.
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  #73  
Old 09.05.2011, 20:21
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Re: vibram five fingers

Tried the mantra "Floaty light, floaty fast" this evening on my longest V5f run - 3.8km (22km)

My cadence is around 90 compared with 80 in my normal running shoes - and the stride feels really different. It was also my first trip into the woods - and it felt fine.

Certainly focusing on trying to land as gently as possible is something worth focussing on,
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Old 09.05.2011, 21:58
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Re: vibram five fingers

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I must have tough feet already or am doing something different to you lot - no bruising what so ever despite a 2hr run at the weekend. Even if you think you are leaving your feet on the ground for the absolute minimum time my advice is to, try picking them up even faster, not to mention not slamming them down hard in the first place (if that isn't already obvious). A really light, fast, touchdown seems to be key.
I'm way too polite to ask your weight, but we muscle bound males have to schlepp a few extra power kilos along for the ride, so ballet prancing doesn't always come naturally. The type of surface is crucial, small stones are OK, the buggers are the ones that are inset into the dirt that protrude and are to Vibrams what icebergs are to Titantics....
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Old 10.05.2011, 00:56
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Re: vibram five fingers

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Advntar - Can you perhaps follow that up with the minimalist shoes that you find do work for trail running?
I should work as a shoe tester because in the last 5 years Iíve gone through a ridiculous number of styles, brands, etc. in a large variety of conditions to find shoes that Iím happy with across the board. At this stage I really like what Inov-8 is doing now in the natural running space. They are a niche brand out of the UK that got their start in fell running shoes. My favorite minimalist shoe to date for trail running is the Inov-8 Baregrip 200. It feels like a barefoot shoe in that you canít tell itís there (in all the good ways), but it grips in all conditions (wet, mud, snow, grass, etc.) and performs where the FiveFingers fail. V5Fs are at times suitable and fun, but they are weak in many areas and not an instant fix for poor technique.

On the latter point, this is just like how swimming speed suits or triathlon wetsuits arenít an instant fix for poor swim technique skills. There may be some short-term gains, but for long-term gains, technique is still something you have to work on and practice regularly. If V5Fs encourage people to learn more about and practice technique (like minimum cadence of 90, pulling the foot up more quickly instead of striding and over-reaching, leaning from the hips, etc.) then that's definitely a benefit. I find though that a minimalist sole is more important for that type of discovery or encouragement than the separated toes.

Disclosure: I donít work for Inov-8 or any other shoe company, but I have organised a couple group orders for CrossFit ZŁrich (as Inov-8 is popular in the global CrossFit community) and Iíve thought about doing some work for Inov-8 in the future as the brand isnít very well-known and stocked in Switzerland. If I find a brand that tests out just as good or better, Iíll be happy to share that feedback as well!
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  #76  
Old 10.05.2011, 12:17
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Re: vibram five fingers

This is all really interesting. I've been wanting to try this for a while but I'm intimidated by the lack of other people doing it around here (everyone will stare at me - I run on a dirt trail along the lake that is fairly heavily used) and fear of injury. Maybe if I go out at the crack of dawn...

For extensive shoe reviews on practically every minimalist shoe out there from an ultramarathoner, check out this blog:
http://www.runningandrambling.com/

I did try to order some Evo barefoot shoes from London and got slapped with the 35 franc customs bill - and then the shoes didn't even fit and I had to send them back and pay the return postage to boot! Really annoying. It's nearly impossible to find the latest shoes in Switzerland, and even for normal running shoes it's a miracle if I find my size (women's 42 - spent a couple of unsuccessful hours on that last weekend. I must be "aberrant"). * frustration*

current plan is to wait for my summer US trip and buy/order something then. Careful those of you ordering from outside CH -- the customs people will tack on a 35 franc handling fee for everything that has a value over 100 francs, IN ADDITION to the VAT. You lose that, no matter whether the shoe fits or not.
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  #77  
Old 10.05.2011, 13:27
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Re: vibram five fingers

I'm contemplating a 3 shoe approach to "barefoot" running:

V5F - for tarmac and light trails
Merrells - for more extreme trails
Innov-8 - for the most extreme trails - and the higher mountain stuff.

We saw a guy running up Mattstock on Sunday - and have fitness/challenge jealousy going on!
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Old 10.05.2011, 14:17
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Re: vibram five fingers

im pretty sure i saw those merrells in jelmoli in zurich at the weekend. they had a range of minimalist merrell shoes.
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Old 10.05.2011, 15:11
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Re: vibram five fingers

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I'd like to get my hands on a pair of these. I've had VFFs for over a year, and regretted purchasing them ever since. They've got extremely poor traction on anything wet, there's so little protection that landing on even a small rock can be extremely painful and can result in bruising, my achilles hurt for close to 6 months after I stopped running in them, and I found having my toes encased and separated to be quite uncomfortable.
The Merrell barefoot shoes is available in 4Feet - I tried them out in the branch in Bern at the weekend. Seem quite similar in feel to the VFFs, except of course for the separated toes. Incidentally, the sole is made from Vibram rubber. They cost 150 CHF, so I'm gonna get a pair soon for comparison against my KSOs. I feel they might offer a bit more protection for those more off-the-beaten track.....tracks They have increased traction compared to the VFFs also. But I imagine that you'll probably get the same issues with landing on rocks as with your VFFs tbh.
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Old 10.05.2011, 20:09
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Re: vibram five fingers

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This is all really interesting. I've been wanting to try this for a while but I'm intimidated by the lack of other people doing it around here (everyone will stare at me - I run on a dirt trail along the lake that is fairly heavily used) and fear of injury. Maybe if I go out at the crack of dawn...
I got mine in a shop in Nyon (same rd as tourist office, on a corner opposite carpark), having tried them on by chance in Bulle (bored in shop waiting for hubby). So you could at least see what they feel like on. and yes people will stare, specially if you get the bright pink ones like me. We must go out soon so you can assess the effect. may is turning into a mad month but will give you a call.

kate
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