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Old 28.06.2010, 11:52
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Gr.Mythen SZ-safety - novices+children[Split from Thread "Hiking in Switzerland"]

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Having done the Klein Mythen (1811m), we descended to Holzegg (1400m) to climb the Grosser Mythen (1899m). 500m ascent dispatched in 30 mins

Overall recommendation: This has easily been the best hike I have done in Switzerland so far. By a wide margin. How I wish someone had posted about this on English forum earlier, I would have ditched Rigi and such mindless up and down runs long ago .

Grosser Mythen can be done by anybody, including kids of 5 years age in perfect dry weather...

N

Delighted to see that you had a great day.
I don't agree with the five year olds on the Mythen though. I know they have improved the safety measures there since I went up, but my book says twelve year olds and older - so with improvements I'd guess ten year olds. Anyway, while most young kids get an enormous satisfaction of being up a 'real mountain' especially with a Summit Book for their names, just going up and up at a steady speed is often not their thing.

Anyway, at that sort of age our younger one expected me to tell her stories while we were walking (irrespective of the steepness of the slope) and there's no way I'd have been able to keep my voice steady while shaking in my shoes worrying that she would go over the edge while jumping from stone to stone. There are other mountains more suitable and 'more fun'.
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Old 28.06.2010, 12:26
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Re: Hiking in Switzerland

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Delighted to see that you had a great day.
I don't agree with the five year olds on the Mythen though. I know they have improved the safety measures there since I went up, but my book says twelve year olds and older - so with improvements I'd guess ten year olds. Anyway, while most young kids get an enormous satisfaction of being up a 'real mountain' especially with a Summit Book for their names, just going up and up at a steady speed is often not their thing.

Anyway, at that sort of age our younger one expected me to tell her stories while we were walking (irrespective of the steepness of the slope) and there's no way I'd have been able to keep my voice steady while shaking in my shoes worrying that she would go over the edge while jumping from stone to stone. There are other mountains more suitable and 'more fun'.
Maybe, but for those foreigners without as much knowledge, I felt this is the easiest accessible to Zurichers. You are right about the age of kids though; I would leave it to the parent to decide how to proceed when they see the spot themselves, the best course of action depends on the parent-kid combination. I saw two year olds riding on their dads' backs, that is a safe way too.

The guidebook and the large signpost at the start of the G Mythen says put small children on rope. I find holding a hand safer (but again, going back to LB's earlier comment, it is best not to mess too much with their natural gait if they are climbing well on their own), and it won't kill their sense of accomplishment as much as putting them on leash would.

There are seriously too many people who hike up the Grosser Mythen on a good weather day. Traffic jams are scary, if a big guy bumps into you you can take a serious fall and I am not exaggerating.
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Old 28.06.2010, 12:47
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Re: Hiking in Switzerland

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Anyway, at that sort of age our younger one expected me to tell her stories while we were walking (irrespective of the steepness of the slope) and there's no way I'd have been able to keep my voice steady while shaking in my shoes worrying that she would go over the edge while jumping from stone to stone. There are other mountains more suitable and 'more fun'.
LongByt - your post about the Chli Aubrig hike certainly fitted the bill for our five year old! For him it was a real mountain and a great day out.

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.

The guidebook and the large signpost at the start of the G Mythen says put small children on rope. I find holding a hand safer (but again, going back to LB's earlier comment, it is best not to mess too much with their natural gait if they are climbing well on their own), and it won't kill their sense of accomplishment as much as putting them on leash would.

Have you wondered why Alpine guides rope up their clients rather than hold their hands?

Roping up is definitely safer - unless you lose your footing yourself and take your child with you .

It also means your child can climb in a more natural manner allowing the use of a rock hand hold at times - impossible when that hand is being held by a parent.

But, having said this, before using a rope in this way, you really ought to have a few lessons from a friend or professional.
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Old 28.06.2010, 14:07
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Re: Hiking in Switzerland

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Have you wondered why Alpine guides rope up their clients rather than hold their hands?

Roping up is definitely safer - unless you lose your footing yourself and take your child with you .

It also means your child can climb in a more natural manner allowing the use of a rock hand hold at times - impossible when that hand is being held by a parent.

But, having said this, before using a rope in this way, you really ought to have a few lessons from a friend or professional.
My feeling was, unless the adult is significantly better climber and more sure-footed than the kid, using a rope between them won't help, in fact can be less safe. What I saw yesterday was a wide spectrum of people, parents and grandparents of different shapes, with kids ranging from 5 to 12 some of whom could be better climbers than most adults. So, while I would think that using a rope must help for a majority of people, that is why the guidebook recommends it, I am not sure it helps for every pair of adult-kid.

The additional hassle of keeping the rope clear of a traffic jam motivated me to say a rope is not necessarily safer in all cases. Now I am just thinking aloud, I wouldn't argue with the veterans and experts on this point.
Holding a hand? i agree, maybe you can give a helping hand when you pause on some trickier turns, it often comes instinctively, but it is mostly a placebo with potential downside as mentioned before.
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Old 28.06.2010, 21:45
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Re: Hiking in Switzerland

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My feeling was, unless the adult is significantly better climber and more sure-footed than the kid, using a rope between them won't help, in fact can be less safe. What I saw yesterday was a wide spectrum of people, parents and grandparents of different shapes, with kids ranging from 5 to 12 some of whom could be better climbers than most adults. So, while I would think that using a rope must help for a majority of people, that is why the guidebook recommends it, I am not sure it helps for every pair of adult-kid.

The additional hassle of keeping the rope clear of a traffic jam motivated me to say a rope is not necessarily safer in all cases. Now I am just thinking aloud, I wouldn't argue with the veterans and experts on this point.
Holding a hand? i agree, maybe you can give a helping hand when you pause on some trickier turns, it often comes instinctively, but it is mostly a placebo with potential downside as mentioned before.
Children may show more skill than an adult and may also show less fear (sometimes no fear!) but it doesn't mean they are mature enough to act like an adult and they can sometimes make ill-judged decisions through lack of experience and knowledge, sometimes with tragic consequences.

So even if they appear to be better climbers; it is only part of the equation.

I accept that you know your own children better than anyone else though I would probably take my rope on a hike like the Grosse Mythen if walking with my kids, especially if a guidebook recommended a rope.

If conditions change and it starts to rain and the rock becomes very slippery - do you really want the situation where both of you are only able to hold on with one hand each?
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Old 29.06.2010, 19:58
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Re: Hiking in Switzerland

Ok, so here I am, relatively new on the scene, who happens to hike the Mythens twice recently, feels happy, and shares it here hoping a few people can try it too, but no, let’s not listen to him, let’s only listen to some established members. So, let’s listen to the nice lady who has formidable experience even though she herself admits she has not been to the Mythen in decades.

And the two experts who we don’t even know have hiked the Mythens before (Tom, Eire, have you? When? Do you even know what guidebook LB is referring to? If so, when was it last updated? Are you positive its author was sensible enough to incorporate the current ground conditions i.e. over the last few weeks hundreds of meters of shiny new steel chains have been put on the Grosser Mythen, and smooth rock has been roughened wherever it matters, making it much secured path than before (even more than in May 2010 when I went there the first time), increasing the traffic manifold, and drastically altering the equation of rope vs. no ropes safety. Are you even aware of this development, or are you just parroting something that some book has supposedly said? Did it occur to you why LB did not mention anything about using rope?)



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If conditions change and it starts to rain and the rock becomes very slippery...[snip]
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Grosser Mythen can be done by anybody, including kids of 5 years age in perfect dry weather.
I increased the font size to help readers with color blindness or are reading from astride a really high horse and can't see well. Just a suggestion: if you ride that high, better wear a parachute too, a helmet alone won’t help.

I never said don’t carry rope, I said using a rope is a decision best left to the parent. I carried a rope the first time around because I hadn’t seen the route before. In fact, I believe Tom has seen pics of us posing with rope, on a social networking site. And I assumed any reasonably intelligent reader reading in the context of my previous posting history might carry a rope; if you recollect, it was I who brought up the topic of rope in the first place.



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Children may show more skill than an adult and may also show less fear (sometimes no fear!) but it doesn't mean they are mature enough to act like an adult and they can sometimes make ill-judged decisions through lack of experience and knowledge, sometimes with tragic consequences.

So even if they appear to be better climbers; it is only part of the equation.

I accept that you know your own children better than anyone else though I would probably take my rope on a hike like the Grosse Mythen if walking with my kids, especially if a guidebook recommended a rope.

If conditions change and it starts to rain and the rock becomes very slippery - do you really want the situation where both of you are only able to hold on with one hand each?

Tom, nice, I am really interested in watching you holding both hands on the chain while hiking in the wet. Sorry, but I would NEVER need to use two hands to hold myself. I am normally barefoot or wearing thin shoes, I can feel the ground quite well (ask anyone who’s shared a trail with me) and less prone to falls and running injuries than most people I know of. And oh, yes, my son and I had enough occasions to practice in really wet, much steeper ground in safer places, and climbed together both indoors and out before, so I do know fairly well what works for us. And my son is twice old as yours, but thanks for the patronizing parenting tips anyway.

I am quite eager to learn from you, my friend, the credibility of your posts will increase manifold if you or Eire can get down from that high horse and hike the Mythen/s with me just once, let’s talk on the ground. And then maybe, just maybe, the equations might change. Until then, Happy posting from behind computer screens and throwing your experienced weights around

Cheers,

N
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Old 29.06.2010, 21:08
hoppy
 
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Re: Hiking in Switzerland

My kids have no fear of heights and speed despite accidents, my knees have turned to jelly having to retrieve them at times- harness and rope is the way to go for me.

Once my friend went up Pilatus, doing the tourist thing which changed to taking a walk on the mountain. My friend is petrified of heights, but it was foggy so she couldn't see the drop and all she did was follow the path and nattered away while the kids bounded ahead. Then the fog lifted, she saw how high she was on a path with no guide rails or fence, she dropped to her knees and started to crawl- shouting out for her daughter. Now we laugh about it, but it could have ended tragically.

Hiking at altutude gave me a healthy respect for changeable weather. I was brought up barefoot, running everywhere, rocks or stones did not bother me, people would call us the blackfoot tribe, but going above the snowline I could not have walked barefoot-your toes go numb after a while.
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Old 29.06.2010, 21:51
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Re: Hiking in Switzerland

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Grosser Mythen can be done by anybody, including kids of 5 years age in perfect dry weather.
But, even when the weather looks perfect, a thunderstorm can brew up very quickly making rock, very, very slippery.

One should plan for such contingencies, especially when looking after others.

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Tom, nice, I am really interested in watching you holding both hands on the chain while hiking in the wet. Sorry, but I would NEVER need to use two hands to hold myself. I am normally barefoot or wearing thin shoes, I can feel the ground quite well (ask anyone who’s shared a trail with me) and less prone to falls and running injuries than most people I know of. And oh, yes, my son and I had enough occasions to practice in really wet, much steeper ground in safer places, and climbed together both indoors and out before, so I do know fairly well what works for us. And my son is twice old as yours, but thanks for the patronizing parenting tips anyway.
I never mentioned you or your son in my post - I was making a general observation. No, I have not been up the Grosse or Kleine Mythen but I've seen them close enough to make a decision that is probably the right one for a lot of families.

But I respect, and stated earlier that the choice is that of the parent. You have made your choice already. I'll make mine and others will make theirs.

Would I take my son now? No, I'd wait till he is older.
Would I take a rope if going with him? Yes, but only my 25m walking rope.

Am I qualified to make these statements? Only as much as anyone else is on a public forum and anyone can take my posts with a pinch of salt.
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Old 30.06.2010, 19:17
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Re: Hiking in Switzerland

I had originally not intended to go further with this discussion as 'both sides' have had their say. However, as this might be read by newcomers to Switzerland with fairly small children and themselves new to hiking, I asked the opinions of two folk this morning, both with lots of mountain experience. The first was brought up in the mountains of Graubünden and the other is a Matterhorn, Mont Blanc type. Both have children of their own.
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The guidebook and the large signpost at the start of the G Mythen says put small children on rope. I find holding a hand safer…and it won't kill their sense of accomplishment as much as putting them on leash would.
Both my ‘experts’ were against holding the hand of a child except for helping for a step or two. One of them threw up her hands in horror at the very idea but said how her two boys (youngest about 6 at the time of the Mythen ascent) were absolutely thrilled to be properly rigged out with harnesses - not a whisper of the indignity of being ‘on a leash’.


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...over the last few weeks hundreds of meters of shiny new steel chains have been put on the Grosser Mythen, and smooth rock has been roughened wherever it matters, making it much secured path...
I was once with a young, extremely sure-footed child, who was, as children do, half walking, half running. We were crossing a small bridge, not very narrow, not by any means dangerous, and the unexpected happened, the child tripped. To my horror, the solid handrail, so useful to adults, was completely useless as the child went straight underneath it. New safety measures are all well and good but have they been put at a height low enough to prevent a child going under them?


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There are seriously too many people who hike up the Grosser Mythen on a good weather day. Traffic jams are scary, if a big guy bumps into you you can take a serious fall and I am not exaggerating.
Exactly.

To sum up: Both my ‘experts’ thought that youngsters who hiked regularly with their parents would, at the age of six or seven, enjoy the ‘rocky’ ascent, happily roped up like real mountaineers. However, both would advise against people with less experience trying it out with such young children.
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Old 30.06.2010, 20:57
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Re: Hiking in Switzerland

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. I agree with your post, but don't make it sound as if I was discouraging using a rope. I was the one who brought up the topic of rope here. I was just saying in some cases where a kid may be fitter than the parent, roping may not necessarily help. Such as when the parent himself may have a mild vertigo etc, I can't cover everycase. Now you may argue such people must not go. I agree, but many not-so-fit and not-so-young do go their, when I saw them I felt the kid would be safer without being roped to them. Indeed most were unroped; to me it seemed those adults thought well. And obviously what holds for a 10-12 year old kid wouldn't for a 6-7 year old. That a parent knows well.

And if you go back to the fatalities statistics figures, 3 kids under ten died in the last 4 years compared to 400 adults. Even after correcting for proportions, it tells me something interesting about safety (I am merely guessing as I don't understand german; I could be totally wrong, just a thought to mull over).

I have said my last on the topic of roping.

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Both my ‘experts’ were against holding the hand of a child except for helping for a step or two.
I agree, that is what I meant and I do too, sorry if my English suggested something else. No, I think I explicitly said before that I give a helping hand at tricky turns i.e. one or two steps.


Eire: your red blobs reached me safely While you are there say my hello to your horse, will you.
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Old 02.07.2010, 00:52
Niranjan
 
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Re: Hiking in Switzerland

I really would not have revived this but for some new info I got a while ago. Monday night I had sent an email inquiry to a Chamonix mountain guide I had done some basic mountaineering with earlier this year, and the President, SAC, Section Mythen, Mr Walter Arnold, who I do not know, asking them about roping. My guide hasn't replied yet, but just now I received Mr Arnold's response. Online translated version below (original text far below) (Tom, LB, happy to send you the email if you want):

Grüezi Mrs. Niranjan [ no I have not had a sex change]

I congratulate them which they have done with her son the tour on the big myths.

As they were able to ascertain the way is well maintained and secured [Note to LB and other hikers: the purpose of a chain is not primarily to prevent someone from falling over or under, it is to allow an easy hand-hold for balance. Probably that is why the chain is mostly fixed on the rocky safe side, not on the exposed ledge side, to encourage you to hug the rocky side and hold the rope, and not move toward the ledge. Accidents still happen. 3 kids died in 4 years. Nothing is foolproof. How many kids do you think died in their mother's laps choking on food in 4 years)

If they are often in the mountains, it is important that they of the objective and subjective dangers is aware.


I am of the view that children who know the possible dangers with a mountain tour, in company from Adults without rope protection the wandering on the big myths can do.
[emphasis mine]

However, it is important that the children are sure about step who have necessary condition, dispose of good footwear and the way

may not leave. Likewise it is important if breaks are necessary, these in one protect place are not done and
in an area where must be calculated on rockfall.

I hope to them with this information to serve and still wishes them many nice mountain tours


Yours sincerely



I am not sure I must press this point because at this point this is hardly a reasonable debate what with pedantic trolls operating from behind the scenes, but while we are at it may I add this important point: implicit in Longbyt's quoting some mountain dwellers is the assumption that they are right and know more because they have been at it for long. Wrong.

As far as I am concerned, unless one has a scientific background, specific training and education for it, it is as good as a myth. take this example: Last year I was engaged in a long debate with an established running coach here (and of course, backed by the same pedantic troll who used to be a nicer member then) about the dubiousness of specialist running shoes. I was almost booed and blobbed for pointing out things based on what i had read in literature, I mean the "real" scientific experts. Why was I booed? (Eire, Tom, am sure you remember) because I was new to running and had just run my first 10k. What happened one year later? I can run faster and longer than all the established forum runners I know perosnally (S-74 is an exception but even that is getting close), I had a lovely injury-free year, I never went to physios and masseurs, while most, if not all, my friends suffered some or the other running related injury. I simply went barefoot or near-barefoot, while other still used fancy trainers wit zero scientific backing. Maybe I was just lucky, but still the conclusion is there for anyone to see with an open mind. It is not conventional wisdom that stands over a long time (once upon a time wasn't geocentric conventional wisdom?)

So we are pitting LB's "experts" with my "expert" (let's not talk about the EF resident experts who were talking through their hats). SAC is an authority, they work closely with institutes like the ETH, and talk sense. People "brought up in the mountains", on the other hand, often do not have comparable education and formal training and clarity of thought. For this reason I don't blindly believe in "experience" based expertise.

I realize this is a public forum, serious thought isn't as welcome as trollery & manipulations by more established coteries. But this is one topic close to my heart, I just couldn't stop posting. if somebody reading this finds some food for thought here I am happy, in fact my own thinking clarified as a participated in this thread.

Cheers,
N

BTW: Eire, can you also whisper in your horse's ears, he is looking so handsome from below.



Original text:

Grüezi Frau Niranjan
Ich gratuliere ihnen, das sie mit ihrem Sohn die Tour auf den grossen Mythen gemacht haben.
Wie sie feststellen konnten ist der Weg gut unterhalten und abgesichert
Wenn sie oft in den Bergen sind, ist es wichtig dass sie sich der objektiven und subjektiven Gefahren bewusst ist.
Ich bin der Ansicht dass Kinder, welche die möglichen Gefahren bei einer Bergtour kennen, in Begleitung von
Erwachsenen ohne Seilsicherung die Wanderung auf den grossen Mythen machen können.
Es ist aber wichtig dass die Kinder trittsicher sind, die nötige Kondition haben, über gutes Schuhwerk verfügen und den Weg
nicht verlassen dürfen. Ebenfalls ist es wichtig, wenn Pausen nötig sind, diese an einem sichern Ort gemacht werden und nicht
in einem Bereich wo mit Steinschlag gerechnet werden muss.
Ich hoffe ihnen mit dieser Information zu dienen und wünsche ihnen noch viele schöne Bergtouren
mit freundlichen Grüssen
Walter Arnold
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Old 02.07.2010, 07:31
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Re: Hiking in Switzerland

hi Niranjan, I've watched this go back and forth and without taking sides (I don't have any kids nor have I ever done Mythen), I think we're missing one key thing in this, which your Mr. Arnold points out prominently in his letter:
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Wenn sie oft in den Bergen sind, ist es wichtig dass sie sich der objektiven und subjektiven Gefahren bewusst ist.
(It's important that regular hikers/mountaineers remain aware of the objective an subjective dangers at all times.)

Translated to the subject at hand, I'm taking immediate risks to mean the general security of the path up. But then there's any possible dangers which might crop up because of things you have little or no control over, like the weather, other hikers, injuries or even exhaustion. Remember, what might be peanuts for you and Niranjan Jr. might be way too much for someone else. I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I too would take advice from you with a pinch of salt, simply because I am neither as fit nor as fearless as you - I have been in a few close calls (weather, someone's health failing and injury), and I have a very healthy respect for what Mr. Arnold calls the subjective risks at that altitude.

I think it comes down to what Tom1234 said: we're all going to make our own decision based on what we feel are the risks - you've made and are arguing for yours, but I'm not so sure they translate seamlessly to everyone else's situation.

p.s. I'm also a little puzzled by Mr. Arnold's view that "children who know the risks of Mythen could do it without" being secured by ropes. Isn't that what you've been debating this whole time - that children don't necessarily judge all the risks of a situation the way we adults do?
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Old 03.07.2010, 04:52
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Re: Hiking in Switzerland

I thought that the point of taking to the mountains to avoid arguments- not create them. Why not just hire an experienced mountain guide and tie the kid to them? Anyway, as a member of the blackfoot tribe, I know to check the weather to guard against frostbitten toes. I prefer being barefoot for martial arts too-but those thick pads cultivated on the bottom of my feet are not very becoming. I was thinking of getting these but my toes are too long!


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Old 03.07.2010, 09:02
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Re: Gr.Mythen SZ - safety - novices+children [Split from Thread "Hiking in Switzerlan

Living very near the Mythen, working at the foot of the Mythen, having climbed the Mythen many times and having taken my children to the Mythen, I feel I'm qualified to share my opinion.

Kids and the Mythen:

You'll find that no one can really say at what age a child should do the hike (even the Swiss). It really is subjective and depends on:

- the attitude of the parents
- the personality and physical fitness of the child
- the weather
- the amount of people doing the hike on that day
- Good shoes
- Always carry enough water, layers of clothes, suntan lotion, a snack and a mobile with you

My son was 8 when we first did the Mythen and he did a terrific job. But he was also aware of the dangers and was quite responsible. We brought along a rope but never needed it.

It's an all uphill, quite often steep, hike up. I've gone with many people and have found that:

- some people have problems with the altitude and one woman had to rest after each hairpin curve on the way up. She was determined to reach the top but we were all on pins and needles. Her descent was easy and she showed no more signs of physical problems

- Knees (this is me). Oh je. I love walking uphill but my knees started hurting after about halfway down. I've since changed hiking boots and now only wear soft soles. This has allieviated many of my knee problems.

There are people who are killed on the Mythen every year. Even good hikers. The local committee for the caretaking of the Mythen trail has recently improved the trail but it's not fool proof. There are drop offs, there are short areas where you walk on slippery rocks and there are places where you want to hold the rope/railing, which can be hard to do when the path is crowded.

The view on top is sensational and definitely worth a hike. There's a small restaurant on top as well.

I would highly recommend the Gross Mythen for climbing. It's a favorite of the locals and it offers the opportunity for a challenging but doable hike for almost anyone who is physically fit, sure-footed and aware of the dangers around them.
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  #15  
Old 03.07.2010, 20:47
Niranjan
 
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Re: Gr.Mythen SZ-safety - novices+children[Split from Thread "Hiking in Switzerland"]

Longbyt: if your primary objective was to warn people, you should have titled this split as Advanced hikers. How could you just call it "novices" out of context I think anyone who had bothered to search the forum (which they should, to get started with planning) would have found this (as there are only 2-3 hits for the Grosser Mythen).

I would still advise complete caution, as one misstep can send you tumbling down a few hundred meters, and rain/wetness can make it dangerous unless you are well-trained by climbing and hiking in the rain in safer places.
To me this hardly sounds like a novice hike description. You knew it was a T3; most bergwegs are only T2, and wanderwegs are T1.

Olygirl: Thanks for offering your thoughts, this is the kind of experience that I am happy to listen to. Just curious to know the distribution of the deaths on the Mythen, were there more adults or kids? Can you make an informed guess?

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- some people have problems with the altitude and one woman had to rest after each hairpin curve on the way up. She was determined to reach the top but we were all on pins and needles.
Not the kind of adult I would like to see a good kid roped to

Last edited by Niranjan; 03.07.2010 at 22:19. Reason: removed unneccessary words
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  #16  
Old 04.07.2010, 11:51
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Re: Gr.Mythen SZ-safety - novices+children[Split from Thread "Hiking in Switzerland"]

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Longbyt: if your primary objective was to warn people, you should have titled this split as Advanced hikers. How could you just call it "novices" out of context
I didn't think the Advanced hikers need the safety warning as much as those who are new to hiking. I was concerned that 'novices' might take this sentence
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Grosser Mythen can be done by anybody, including kids of 5 years age in perfect dry weather.N
from this post, literally.


PS. I'm glad I didn't reply to this Thread last night when I read your original text.
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  #17  
Old 04.07.2010, 12:02
Niranjan
 
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Re: Gr.Mythen SZ-safety - novices+children[Split from Thread "Hiking in Switzerland"]

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I didn't think the Advanced hikers need the safety warning as much as those who are new to hiking. I was concerned that 'novices' might take this sentence from this post, literally.


PS. I'm glad I didn't reply to this Thread last night when I read your original text.
Fair enough. I thought the context where I said it i,e. soon after saying "500m ascent dispatched in 30 mins " on a terrain of that sort, should have set the alarm bells ringing for anyone about the author. Maybe i overestimate the intelligence of the average EF reader, you'd know better, and better to err on the safer side

[sorry I am sounding too smug now, again ]
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  #18  
Old 04.07.2010, 12:46
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Re: Gr.Mythen SZ-safety - novices+children[Split from Thread "Hiking in Switzerland"]

Tragedies that happen on the Mythen usually involve adults. This would make sense since the percentage of hikers going up to the Mythen are indeed adults.
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  #19  
Old 21.05.2013, 13:18
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Re: Gr.Mythen SZ-safety - novices+children[Split from Thread "Hiking in Switzerland"]



Totally mental but it does give a good idea of new chained sections
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  #20  
Old 21.05.2013, 13:34
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Re: Gr.Mythen SZ-safety - novices+children[Split from Thread "Hiking in Switzerland"]

I wouldn't do it on a bike!

I remember this thread and actually bumped into Niranjan at the Brunni carpark early one morning.

He was just setting off on a Mythen tour and I had just finished running up and down the Grosse Mythen for some exercise on the way to do the Saturday morning supermarket shop.
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