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  #21  
Old 06.07.2010, 13:41
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

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Okeeey, for now we will say it is delusional. As I said before, one fourth of the figures I cited above, i.e. 400-500m over 4-5 hours is a reasonable level for Alpine hiking.
Agreed, 45 degree is not what's I'll attempt on this kind of experiment, will stay below 30 degrees in safe conditions
Ok, we can agree on that (it was nice bargaining with you )
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Old 06.07.2010, 13:55
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

There 2 upcoming events to test the theory - Gstaad 3000 - 26km and 1950m - and the Mountainman event. Both have enough climb to get an idea of absolute performance.

The Gstaad climbs 1600m in the last 10km.

The Arosa snow run did 400m in 2km alongside the piste - and that brutal.
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  #23  
Old 06.07.2010, 14:23
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

I doubt I'll try any of those races, in general I find it hard to maintain a place in the middle of the pack in races
For my theory, the climb has to be steeper than found in races, and not have any flats or descents, also hard to find in most organized races.

One figure I have read on internet is, the fastest guys hike up the Pilatus in an hour and a half, which is steep 1600m ascent (I'd take just over 2h). So, let's say 1100 m in an hour for the superfit guy. Now can he repeat it 5 times, at say 1000m an hour pace, by using the train for descent, is that insane?
For comparison, the UTMB big race has around 10 k height gain, plus an equal amount of descent, plus some flats, done in about 20 hours by the winner in one go.

Now I am not saying any of this is even remotely pertinent to alpine hiking by amateur weekend warriors like us, but just saying Thanks for bumping this thread
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  #24  
Old 06.07.2010, 14:36
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

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Now I am not saying any of this is even remotely pertinent to alpine hiking by amateur weekend warriors like us
Good. Now I think we agree on everything (you might have to edit that first post of yours, though, as it might confuse people).
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  #25  
Old 06.07.2010, 14:49
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

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to try 6000m ascend in 12 hours.
Ok, so you already know the rough venue for this event: Mt Pilatus.
Start point: Alpnachstad train station. We buy a day ticket, do as many ascents as we can, using the train to get down each time. Mid-point Amsingen station as bail off point. Refreshments at the Kulm hotel after each leg. People of all levels of physical and mental states are welcome, you can do as many trips as you like.
Date: TBD by Slyvain74, my climbing guru.

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Good. Now I think we agree on everything (you might have to edit that first post of yours, though, as it might confuse people).
No, with the red blobs I have received lately I can no longer edit . And no, we haven't agreed on the date yet
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  #26  
Old 06.07.2010, 14:53
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

UMTB:
8km @ 0%
6km @ 12.5%
7km @ 13.5% (DESC)
10km @ 3.5%
4km @ 0%
10km @ 12.5%
5km @ 18% (DESC)
5km @ 5%
5km @ 14%
5km @ 12% (DESC)
5km @ 12.5%
4km @ 12.5% (DESC)
5km @ 15% (DESC)
4km @ 20%
8km @ 0%
5km @ 5% (DESC)
4km @ 20%
3km @ 15% (DESC)
6km @ 7% (DESC)
9km @ 5% (DESC)
6km @ 5%
9km @ 5.5%
7km @ 10% (DESC)
4km @ 17.5%
5km @ 16% (DESC)
4km @ 5%
4km @ 17.5%
3km @ 10% (DESC)
7km @ 11.5% (DESC)

75km ASC (12.6% average incline).
20km FLAT
71km DESC

If we say the ASCENT follows the rule of thumb from earlier (IE 150 = 1km) - then the climb equates to 63km. So a theoretical total of 138km / 229km = 60% of the time climbing.

The very best will take 21hrs = 12.6hrs = 750m per hour.

A sub 4:00 marathon fit person should be able to match that for perhaps 1 or maybe 2 hours. Much beyond that requires very high levels of aerobic capability and also very efficient upper leg muscle to body weight ratio.
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  #27  
Old 06.07.2010, 14:59
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

Fair enough, I have already conceded that the OP was exaggerated. Now let's not talk about superhumans, but what many of us, forummers can realistically do. 6000m in 10-12 hours. i.e. 4 ascents of Mt Pilatus in a day. Any takers?
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  #28  
Old 06.07.2010, 15:00
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

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Ok, so you already know the rough venue for this event: Mt Pilatus.
Start point: Alpnachstad train station. We buy a day ticket, do as many ascents as we can, using the train to get down each time. Mid-point Amsingen station as bail off point. Refreshments at the Kulm hotel after each leg. People of all levels of physical and mental states are welcome, you can do as many trips as you like.
Date: TBD by Slyvain74, my climbing guru.



No, with the red blobs I have received lately I can no longer edit . And no, we haven't agreed on the date yet
I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear, but I am NOT intending to do anything like that (without a pair of wheels and away from the tarmac).
I said I might join you for a couple of hours (which would already be 1600-2000m of climbing ), and that's all I meant.
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  #29  
Old 06.07.2010, 15:05
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

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I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear, but I am NOT intending to do anything like that (without a pair of wheels and away from the tarmac).
I said I might join you for a couple of hours (which would already be 1600-2000m of climbing ), and that's all I meant.
Sure, so we could do just one ascent, and we will get a good idea to be able to extrapolate to a whole day using a reasonable calibration formula? Or who knows, someone else might be interested in trying out multi-trips. In the spirit of scientific inquiry I am willing to offer myself as a subject
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  #30  
Old 06.07.2010, 15:09
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

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Fair enough, I have already conceded that the OP was exaggerated. Now let's not talk about superhumans, but what many of us, forummers can realistically do. 6000m in 10-12 hours. i.e. 4 ascents of Mt Pilatus in a day. Any takers?
6000m is possible - but what sort of distance (lateral) are you talking about! Only then can you get a realistic idea of what is possible.

The very elite will do 9500m @ 12.6% in 12.6hrs - same angle for 6000km would be around 7.9hrs. I reckon I alpine run between 0.55-0.65 Elite pace EG Marathon Elite = 2hrs - ME = 3:36 (2/3.6) = 0.56. 1/2 Elite = 0:59 - ME: 1.38 = (1/1.63) = 0.61

Assume the same for this sort of challenge: Elite 7.9hrs for 6000m ME:13.2hrs

It is interesting to find your own physical limits - but experience will teach you more about how capable your body is at being pushed beyond normal limits - the "wall" is evidence of that. Around 30km (for a "normal" person) you'll hit the wall - in doing so your body has used up all the readily available energy and begins burning through the fat. In using this it consumes vastly more oxygen - which means your muscles aren't getting the amount they require to work at the rate you want them to. IMHO much beyond 3 hours of running you'll hit that point. To deliver sustained performance for longer you'll have to slow the pace considerably and ensure regular, fast working calories. In the past I have found my VO2 max to be consistent between 7km and 40km.

I reckon you're best suited to this - http://www.ultratrailmb.com/page/45/Course.html
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  #31  
Old 06.07.2010, 15:10
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

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Fair enough, I have already conceded that the OP was exaggerated. Now let's not talk about superhumans, but what many of us, forummers can realistically do. 6000m in 10-12 hours. i.e. 4 ascents of Mt Pilatus in a day. Any takers?
If you want to save the cost of a day pass for Pilatus, you are welcome to hike up and down my stairs at home for a day. Each ascent is approximately 2.4m vertical and I think that 2500 ascents should be feasible in a 10-12 hour period. I'll make you a ham sandwich at half time.

Let me know

Cheers
Jekyll
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  #32  
Old 06.07.2010, 15:24
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

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6000m is possible - but what sort of distance (lateral) are you talking about! Only then can you get a realistic idea of what is possible.

The very elite will do 9500m @ 12.6% in 12.6hrs - same angle for 6000km would be around 7.9hrs. I reckon I alpine run between 0.55-0.65 Elite pace EG Marathon Elite = 2hrs - ME = 3:36 (2/3.6) = 0.56. 1/2 Elite = 0:59 - ME: 1.38 = (1/1.63) = 0.61

Assume the same for this sort of challenge: Elite 7.9hrs for 6000m ME:13.2hrs

It is interesting to find your own physical limits - but experience will teach you more about what you are capable. In the past I have found my VO2 max to be consistent between 7km and 40km.

I reckon you're best suited to this - http://www.ultratrailmb.com/page/45/Course.html
About 25k i.e, 6 km for each ascent, just guessing.

I am reasonably sure I am not up for the UTMB challenge.

As for the rest, I will mull it over.

Jekyl, I appreciate the offer, I would take it up if anyone else joins me. As I said before, I am not doing this alone and my own preference is the Pilatus. Thanks anyway
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  #33  
Old 06.07.2010, 15:27
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

I'll join Jekyll on his stairs, but only if there is a switchback on them and we can bike down them every time we get to the top.
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  #34  
Old 06.07.2010, 19:18
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

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Sure, so we could do just one ascent, and we will get a good idea to be able to extrapolate to a whole day using a reasonable calibration formula? Or who knows, someone else might be interested in trying out multi-trips. In the spirit of scientific inquiry I am willing to offer myself as a subject
If I were to be the scientist in this inquiry, I would have the subject do "experiment 2000m", then "exp. 3000m", then "exp. 4000m", then "exp. 5000m", then, maybe, worry about "exp 6000m" etc...
That would give the subject sufficiently many "points of reference" regarding his/her abilities, which is much more valuable than extrapolation formulas IMHO.
</my_2_cents/>
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  #35  
Old 07.07.2010, 09:57
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

4 ascents of the Pilatus would be pretty boring. Up and down in a day is pleasant, I'd have no desire to do it twice and then some just to prove a point. As I'm beyond trying to prove anything for my ego, I'd rather just enjoy a good day out hiking with friends and talk about life, the landscape and women (not necessarily in that order).
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  #36  
Old 07.07.2010, 13:20
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

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4 ascents of the Pilatus would be pretty boring. Up and down in a day is pleasant, I'd have no desire to do it twice and then some just to prove a point. As I'm beyond trying to prove anything for my ego, I'd rather just enjoy a good day out hiking with friends and talk about life, the landscape and women (not necessarily in that order).
How did the Rigi Kulm up and down three times in one go at night EF social event go anyway?

Did it actually go ahead?
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  #37  
Old 07.07.2010, 15:30
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

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4 ascents of the Pilatus would be pretty boring. Up and down in a day is pleasant, I'd have no desire to do it twice and then some just to prove a point. As I'm beyond trying to prove anything for my ego, I'd rather just enjoy a good day out hiking with friends and talk about life, the landscape and women (not necessarily in that order).
Good post. If every amateur running racer (and cyclist for that matter) honestly thought like this, this thread would not have got 1000 hits and 35 responses, nor would adventure tourism business be doing so well.

As they say, he that has not sinned cast the first stone

Hiking up Pilatus more than twice, without a friend to talk to, can be dangerously boring. I'll post the alpine hike details later; watch this space
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  #38  
Old 07.07.2010, 15:33
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

Fed up with talking about what we're going to do and speeds, so here's a chance for you boys and girls to experience the real thing:

Hiking in Glarnerland

See you Sunday.....
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  #39  
Old 09.07.2010, 16:24
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

And we have something for the grownups here . This is for the surefooted and for those having a head for heights. If you have a tendency to teeter on 45degree slopes, let me warn you this one has 60-80degree sections


Last edited by Niranjan; 09.07.2010 at 17:14.
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  #40  
Old 09.07.2010, 16:41
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Re: Alpine hiking (Adult content. Parental discretion advised)

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I reckon you're best suited to this - http://www.ultratrailmb.com/page/45/Course.html
Despite a lot of "Billy Big-Chat" on the forum, I think it would take most of us mere-mortals a while to build up the fitness just to get the 5 qualifying points required to enter UTMB.

I have only qualified once in the past 3 years, but then had the foresight not to even dream of trying for UTMB as it would likely have been a valley or seven too far!
Happy hiking
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