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  #221  
Old 21.12.2010, 09:17
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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How would you then make the difference between

répétez s'il- vous-plait and repétez s'il-vous-plait ?
I usually do the later (a lot).

Tom
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  #222  
Old 21.12.2010, 09:19
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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No, the ä ö ü are absolutely necessary to make things understandable. If something is übel it is not ubel, if you use the öffentliche Verkehr you do not use an offentliche Verkehr. It would not only not make anything easier, it would be a disaster. Some French speakers might tell you why the French accents very often are really important.

But no, in German, the idea rather is to re-introduce the Capital ö ü ä , so that it will be Örlikon and not that dreadful "Oerlikon"
Why necessary? Why not just replace ü with ue, etc.?

Tom
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  #223  
Old 21.12.2010, 09:23
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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UDC is also the Ticino equivalent. Different language than French and thus different words, but the same acronym.
We also have the Lega, which is quite different than the Italian Lega, and Similar, but different, from the UDC. I prefer the Lega. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_dei_Ticinesi

Tom
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  #224  
Old 21.12.2010, 11:14
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Why necessary? Why not just replace ü with ue, etc.?

Tom
Because the Umlaut IS a "e" in the first place and Germans just don't ask anybody's opinion about their own language - in other words: take it or leave it. Spelling norms can be explained, but not justified. Get over it.

If you can accept the surrealistic english spelling, there is nothing in the way of accepting any other anywhere in the world.

P.S. Reading Saussure would actually help. If I say more, you'll accuse me of being an arrogant intellectual taking no part in the growth of the BNP, so bye bye.
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  #225  
Old 21.12.2010, 11:41
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Because the Umlaut IS a "e" in the first place
Yes, I know that, but why is it sometimes written "ü" and others "ue"? Why not just one, or the other? It's haveing two legitimate ways to spell the same word that is confusing!

Tom
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  #226  
Old 21.12.2010, 12:02
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Yes, I know that, but why is it sometimes written "ü" and others "ue"? Why not just one, or the other? It's haveing two legitimate ways to spell the same word that is confusing!

Tom
Using the Umlaut is the usual way to spell it. But if you're abroad and can't find the Umlaut on the keyboard, you're probably happy that there is another way of spelling it.
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  #227  
Old 21.12.2010, 13:04
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

Yes, I make an effort when I write something in German to add the 'e' after the vowel to compensate for the lack of umlauted letters on my keyboard*... This I cannot do the same in French for accents though. And I long ago gave up on ALT+<thre digits on numpad> for forgin characters. OK, not very good all round, I admit. I suppose I'm lazy and like the lack of accents as it distracts from the other errrors (however hard I try) in my foreign language text!

* ahem, now in Swissland I do not even have that excuse now - my keyboard is a Swiss one that I have mapped as if it was a US (not UK) one due to habit over the last however many years.
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  #228  
Old 21.12.2010, 13:19
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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How would you then make the difference between

répétez s'il- vous-plait
and
repétez s'il-vous-plait ?

1 tiny little accent but BIG difference.
I'm intrigued here - if I've understood correctly here, you're talking about two verbs - répéter (to repeat) and péter (to pass wind/fart)? Wouldn't the second phrase use a hyphen to indicate the 're' as to do something again? Or I am getting my French and English usage mixed up here?

But OK, as alluded to earlier, it's not just the keyboard that does not help me in typing accents, it's also my general laziness I think

(Although in my defence I do look up words - whatever language - rather than mispell them; any mistakes in this post is down to my bad typing!.)
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  #229  
Old 21.12.2010, 14:59
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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my keyboard is a Swiss one that I have mapped as if it was a US (not UK) one due to habit over the last however many years.
Same here, at least on my laptops (desktops have real US keyborads, except a few years ago when I was using a Norwegian keyboard with US mapping).

Tom
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  #230  
Old 21.12.2010, 20:20
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Why necessary? Why not just replace ü with ue, etc.?

Tom
Why replace useful and practical letters which reflect the sounds correctly with letter-combinations ? Look at Turkey ! Mustafa Kemal, when changing over to the Western Alphabet, took over the German ö ü ä into modern Turkish, as these letters for Turkey are practical and make things easier.

It would also come in useful for English, as here below, where you find the text above with German writing :

Wäi ripleiss yusfäl änd präktikel lätters witsch riflekt dä saunds korrektli wid lätter kombinäishens ? Luuk ät Törky ! Mustafa Kemal, wän tscheinsching ouwer tu dä Wästern Alfabet, tuuk ouwer dä Dschörmen ö u ä intu modern Törkisch, äs diis lätters for Törky aar präktikel änd meik dings iisier

With this kind of spelling, English would become much easier and far more logical for everybody

Last edited by Wollishofener; 21.12.2010 at 21:44.
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  #231  
Old 21.12.2010, 20:28
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Because the Umlaut IS a "e" in the first place and Germans just don't ask anybody's opinion about their own language - in other words: take it or leave it. Spelling norms can be explained, but not justified. Get over it.

If you can accept the surrealistic english spelling, there is nothing in the way of accepting any other anywhere in the world.

P.S. Reading Saussure would actually help. If I say more, you'll accuse me of being an arrogant intellectual taking no part in the growth of the BNP, so bye bye.
Well, he can try to enter the Duden-Kommission, where also many Austrians and Swiss are contributing to the work and are in fact somewhat over-represented numerically. However, unlike the Académie Française which tries to "guide" the language, the Duden-Kommission is recording the changes and tries to unify writing and usage of new words. In the last reform, many things were simplified, more tolerance was brought into the system, and emphasis was given to making things easier.

Here the link to that splendid organisation
http://www.duden.de/ueber_duden/
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  #232  
Old 21.12.2010, 21:40
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Yes, I know that, but why is it sometimes written "ü" and others "ue"? Why not just one, or the other? It's haveing two legitimate ways to spell the same word that is confusing!

Tom
Is is always ü ! It just is UE at the beginning of nouns, or when everything is written in Capital letters, and of course in some personal names.
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  #233  
Old 21.12.2010, 21:58
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Is is always ü ! It just is UE at the beginning of nouns, or when everything is written in Capital letters, and of course in some personal names.
It's Überraschung and not Ueberraschung...
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  #234  
Old 21.12.2010, 23:31
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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I'm intrigued here - if I've understood correctly here, you're talking about two verbs - répéter (to repeat) and péter (to pass wind/fart)? Wouldn't the second phrase use a hyphen to indicate the 're' as to do something again? Or I am getting my French and English usage mixed up here?

But OK, as alluded to earlier, it's not just the keyboard that does not help me in typing accents, it's also my general laziness I think

(Although in my defence I do look up words - whatever language - rather than mispell them; any mistakes in this post is down to my bad typing!.)
Absolutely spot on! I used to use that example with the kids I used to teach in the UK - to illustrate the fact a silly little accent can seriously change the meaning. They generally remembered.
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  #235  
Old 21.12.2010, 23:37
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Absolutely spot on! I used to use that example with the kids I used to teach in the UK - to illustrate the fact a silly little accent can seriously change the meaning. They generally remembered.
Meanwhile, je viens de repéter!

Tom

P.S. I can only do accents by cut and paste, can't remember the ascii codes, and only us US keyboard layout (software is a pain with other layouts), regardless of what is printed on the keys.
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  #236  
Old 22.12.2010, 00:16
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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It's Überraschung and not Ueberraschung...
Most computers and typewriters do not have the capital Ü available, so that Ue..... has to fill the gap. That my computer (Fujitsu-Siemens) now has it again, however is really nice
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  #237  
Old 22.12.2010, 00:27
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Most computers and typewriters do not have the capital Ü available, so that Ue..... has to fill the gap. That my computer (Fujitsu-Siemens) now has it again, however is really nice
Most computers with Swiss keyboard do not have the capital umlauts. German keyboards have them just as well as the "ß".

By the way, what's a typewriter?
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  #238  
Old 22.12.2010, 01:28
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

On Swiss German keyboard, the Ü,Ö and Ä are hidden:
- type ¨ (under the ! on the right side)
- type shift O
= Ö
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  #239  
Old 22.12.2010, 05:18
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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On Swiss German keyboard, the Ü,Ö and Ä are hidden:
- type ¨ (under the ! on the right side)
- type shift O
= Ö
or just turn caps lock on and off?
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  #240  
Old 22.12.2010, 15:21
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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With this kind of spelling, English would become much easier and far more logical for everybody
Ahem, 'English', 'logicial' and 'spelling' should never be used together! One of my favourite illustrations of the absurdity of English spelling is the word "ghoti", normally written as "fish"!
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