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  #21  
Old 07.12.2010, 11:04
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

I think you should wait a while for the OP to clarify himself before you all jump on a bandwagen here. It looks to me as if some of you are ready to brand the OP a racist. He's only made one short post - you can't read everything what they mean just yet!

I can understand that looking Turkish you are more likely to feel the subject of SVP campains more than if you look white European. I think the OP wants to know if being a white German also makes you feel threatened by the SVP.
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  #22  
Old 07.12.2010, 11:07
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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I agree.. If you live here then you should adapt.. I grew speaking High German but since moving here 8 months ago I have made a conscious effort to learn and speak Swiss German.. I don't think its that hard for German speakers to adapt..
So you are saying an Aussie or Kiwi moving to Texas has to start learning the drawl ? An Englishman moving to Ireland has to start adopting the local dialect ? Didn't think so.
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  #23  
Old 07.12.2010, 11:08
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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So you are saying an Aussie or Kiwi moving to Texas has to start learning the drawl ? An Englishman moving to Ireland has to start adopting the local dialect ? Didn't think so.
An accent is not a dialect...and German is not the spoken word Swiss German is.
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Old 07.12.2010, 11:13
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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I understand that, but surely if you are born in Germany and have a German passport that makes you German regardless of skin colour?
Well, the law is quite complicated...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law
or, if you prefer (and like to read German law-speak), the German version, which is more extensive:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch...h%C3%B6rigkeit
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Old 07.12.2010, 11:14
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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So you are saying an Aussie or Kiwi moving to Texas has to start learning the drawl ? An Englishman moving to Ireland has to start adopting the local dialect ? Didn't think so.
An accent is not the same as a dialect.. I find that adopting some 'Swiss Germanisms' garners more respect with locals and shows them that you are making an effort..The point i was trying is that it is not that hard to adapt.. I speak High German at work and when I deal with Swiss German supplier I speak to them in their dialect.
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Old 07.12.2010, 11:16
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Well, the law is quite complicated...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law
or, if you prefer (and like to read German law-speak), the German version, which is more extensive:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch...h%C3%B6rigkeit
Thanks for that.. My brother's father and my step father is German and 'White' so I think that still makes him German..
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Old 07.12.2010, 11:17
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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An accent is not a dialect...and German is not the spoken word Swiss German is.
I don't think I referred to an accent anywhere. Swiss German is a dialect with a few specific terms (Helvetisms). I believe that you can pick that up rather easily from reading the NZZ or other leading Swiss newspapers, listening to the news on Swiss TV etc. However, even the people from Basel and Zurich do not seem to be able to agree on one version of the spoken Swiss dialect.
The official language is established in the Swiss constitution, which was established by the Swiss people. Had they wanted to establish Swiss German as an official language they would have had ample opportunity to do so. They managed to establish Rhätoromanisch as an official language, despite this being an artificial conglomerate of four separate dialects.
I wonder why Swiss Germans specifically react so emotionally to this subject. A dialect is not better, worse or inferior to a language.
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Old 07.12.2010, 11:17
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Thanks for that.. My brother's father and my step father is German and 'White' so I think that still makes him German..
In Germany yes....in Switzerland he'd still be considered a foreigner (unfortunately).
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Old 07.12.2010, 11:21
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

If you ask the Canadians this same exact question but just with those ''native'' canadians, you won't get many answers....

What makes a country is the population in general. A black born german may suffer from discrimination on paper (nationality), face to face, etc.

The Turks born in Germany are still not see as German, they call them ''the Turks''. Those Turks, when they go to Turkey, they are not see as Turks, they call them Alamanci, which is also very offensive.

My point is that the op does what too many germans and turks do to their very own people.
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Old 07.12.2010, 11:26
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Actually a lot of Germans, at least here in Rheintal are seen as competition by willing to work for lower wages than a standard issue Swiss would. This brings quite a bit of rancor by the Swiss complaining that they too now are forced to work for lower wages, so tensions are quite high.
Especially when you get Germans from the former DDR happy to have a job, any job, for any wage, period.
There are a lot of SVP members around this area and they seem to consider ex-DDRler just above a Jugoslav or even worst a Moslem.
i think its a myth or true only for handy and service work. people with a higher education know their worth and thats why this argument is only valid in building and service industry. and those people voting for SVP sit at maybe MIGROS in Goldau or work as a builder in Uri or what have you.when i cleaned out my desk when i came to work here for the first time i found the contract of the swiss guy i was replacing and he earned less than i do. so... its not 100% true as a generalisation.

how i feel? i give a feck about it. i live my live, have a job, earn the money, spend it here, date swiss woman, speak high german and thats it.
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Old 07.12.2010, 11:30
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Well, the law is quite complicated...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law
or, if you prefer (and like to read German law-speak), the German version, which is more extensive:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch...h%C3%B6rigkeit
Wow! Didn't know that the Bavarian is still a legitimate nationality.
And that you can be a Bavarian and a German National.
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Old 07.12.2010, 11:32
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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i think its a myth or true only for handy and service work. people with a higher education know their worth and thats why this argument is only valid in building and service industry. and those people voting for SVP sit at maybe MIGROS in Goldau or work as a builder in Uri or what have you.when i cleaned out my desk when i came to work here for the first time i found the contract of the swiss guy i was replacing and he earned less than i do. so... its not 100% true as a generalisation.

how i feel? i give a feck about it. i live my live, have a job, earn the money, spend it here, date swiss woman, speak high german and thats it.
Yes you are correct. I was generalizing a bit too much.
But how the hell do you get to date Swiss woman? Havn't managed that in five years.
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Old 07.12.2010, 11:49
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

The discussion about Swiss German being a dialect rather than a language is a very old one and yes very emotional. I am Swiss, I grew up here, Swiss German is my mother tongue. Not German. German is a language I learnt at school. It is used at work, for letter etc. I read it and I can speak it well but it's not my mother tongue. Other Swiss feel different about that but many (younger ones) share my opinion. I am not saying every German has to learn Swiss German. He should be able to understand it. I don't ask for more. But (there is always a "but") I want him to respect that I see Swiss German as a language, its' the emotional language. German is artificial to me, Swiss German is "real".

I don't want to offend anyone but be aware that this is a touchy subject for Swiss people and it has nothing to do with feeling inferior. It's just plain and simple the way that for most Swiss, Swiss German is the language of the heart not High German.
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Old 07.12.2010, 11:54
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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The discussion about Swiss German being a dialect rather than a language is a very old one and yes very emotional. I am Swiss, I grew up here, Swiss German is my mother tongue. Not German. German is a language I learnt at school. It is used at work, for letter etc. I read it and I can speak it well but it's not my mother tongue. Other Swiss feel different about that but many (younger ones) share my opinion. I am not saying every German has to learn Swiss German. He should be able to understand it. I don't ask for more. But (there is always a "but") I want him to respect that I see Swiss German as a language, its' the emotional language. German is artificial to me, Swiss German is "real".

I don't want to offend anyone but be aware that this is a touchy subject for Swiss people and it has nothing to do with feeling inferior. It's just plain and simple the way that for most Swiss, Swiss German is the language of the heart not High German.
I totally agree with you. It is like those french who tell us that our french isn't french. We get verry offended by it and with great reasons. Languages are deep part of one's culture and snobbing it is very offensive toward someone
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Old 07.12.2010, 11:57
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

That is the impression I get hereabouts as well, High German as the ingua franca but Swiss German remains as the preferred idiom.

On another note we have a French-speaking Walliser guy here unable to speak German at all and as the Swiss Germanics don't speak French we communicate in English, how weird is that?
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Old 07.12.2010, 11:58
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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I don't think I referred to an accent anywhere. Swiss German is a dialect with a few specific terms (Helvetisms). I believe that you can pick that up rather easily from reading the NZZ or other leading Swiss newspapers, listening to the news on Swiss TV etc. However, even the people from Basel and Zurich do not seem to be able to agree on one version of the spoken Swiss dialect.
The official language is established in the Swiss constitution, which was established by the Swiss people. Had they wanted to establish Swiss German as an official language they would have had ample opportunity to do so. They managed to establish Rhätoromanisch as an official language, despite this being an artificial conglomerate of four separate dialects.
I wonder why Swiss Germans specifically react so emotionally to this subject. A dialect is not better, worse or inferior to a language.
You wouldn't pick up Swiss German from reading the NZZ. You'd pick up Swiss Standard German, which only has differences of vocabulary.

On the other hand, learning a dialect (anywhere, not just Switzerland) would be useful if you're living somewhere. As has been pointed out above, dialect is not accent and so may not be easy for someone to pick up. The major difference is that with dialect you will have changes in grammar as well as vocabulary and pronunciation. This is a significant challenge for many Germans, hence the existence of Swiss German for German Speaker courses (yes, to be picky it's not a generic Mundart they teach, but in Zürich, they'd normally teach Zürich German).

I don't know why you're so hung up on what the official language is. It's more about communication than authority isn't it?
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Old 07.12.2010, 12:03
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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An accent is not a dialect...and German is not the spoken word Swiss German is.
In Germany is "TV grade high German" not the spoken language either. As standard German is a mix of Saxon Grammar with lower Saxon pronounciation it is actually not spoken anywhere (and no, not in Hannover either). Unlike all those former British colonies that were only populated a few generations - say 500 years max - ago, does every German area have its own dialects, not "accents". I for one used to speak something known as "Moselfränkisch" before I left my home area.

I know that the Swiss love to be treated as something unbelievable unique with their dialects. Sorry, you are not.

On the SVP - I find the SVP and their campaigns the most backward part of Switzerland. They are my personal antidote for direct democracy - a concept I loved when I came here first. Their populism is so easy to see through and yet again and again are many voters aparently "bought" through the money pumped in media campaigns that are on the very same level that is in "modern Europe" only still used by neo nazis as the NPD in Germany, the FN in France, the VB in Belgium and so on. A decade ago, Austria was the same with Jörg Haider, but right now, Switzerland is in my eyes pretty alone with their attitudes.

As discussed in previous threads: I personally have the impression that the campaigns get worse each year and that Switzerland is on a pretty slippery slope. The people I deal with on a daily basis are great, but I find the campaigns more than just a bit annoying. I have a decent job here and pay a fair share of taxes. The reality is that I have a comfortable life here and prefer it over most places in Germany right now. But since I am well educated, I can find a similarly high income in Germany (with a higher tax burden but far lower real estate prices) so simple: At the moment, my life here is on the same level of quality as in Germany. If the climate towards foreigners gets worse - if Switzerland for example leaves Schengen and I need to do all the Schengen visa thing again for my non-EU wife - there is a fair chance that I am out of here. Switzerland does not need me - but I do not necessarily need Switzerland either. It is more like a "marriage of convenience" right now... and I have the feeling that many Germans I talk to here see it in a very similar way.
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Old 07.12.2010, 12:04
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Why should I have to integrate into the Swiss society by learning one variety (of many) of a local German dialect, when I speak, read and write one of the official languages way better than the average Swiss German ? As a reminder: The official language is German as in High German, not Swiss German, the latter covering a family of dialects like e.g. Bavarian.
And in case you were tempted to groan - my German is also way above average back home in Germany, thus I am not saying that Swiss Germans are less educated re German...
Typical "Gummihals" attitude...
Your assumption that your German is "better" than ours is wrong because our "High German" has expressions in it that some Germans actually have the nerve to correct us on but are correct in Switzerland. Classic example - a Swiss person says "Ich habe kalt" (very roughly - I have cold), whereas a German will say "mir ist kalt" (even more roughly - cold is with me) and I have been giggled at for saying the Swiss version and told "that's so cute, but it's wrong, you know?". Now when I concentrate, I can speak German like someone from Northern Germany, to a point where some Germans don't spot I'm Swiss for quite some time, but I've stopped doing it because I feel this is my country, this is how we speak here, sod it. And I will certainly not be corrected by some arrogant Prussian who thinks he is here to teach us how things are really done. If his argument is that "High German is the official language", I can quite happily switch to French or Italian, no problem, see how he fares with those. (Can you tell I had an unfortunate run in with someone from the Great Canton to the North yesterday?)

But for the more reasonable Germans who really are enriching our culture with a bit more spontaneity and tall people , I don't expect them to speak Swiss German, it sounds wrong, but I do ask them to understand me when I talk in what is a more comfortable language for me. Zurich-Deutsch is a good place to start before challenging yourself with Bernese and then, as the ultimate challenge, Wallisertiiitsch, which even I don't always understand.
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  #39  
Old 07.12.2010, 12:06
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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In Germany is "TV grade high German" not the spoken language either. As standard German is a mix of Saxon Grammar with lower Saxon pronounciation it is actually not spoken anywhere (and no, not in Hannover either). Unlike all those former British colonies that were only populated a few generations - say 500 years max - ago, does every German area have its own dialects, not "accents". I for one used to speak something known as "Moselfränkisch" before I left my home area.

I know that the Swiss love to be treated as something unbelievable unique with their dialects. Sorry, you are not.

On the SVP - I find the SVP and their campaigns the most backward part of Switzerland. They are my personal antidote for direct democracy - a concept I loved when I came here first. Their populism is so easy to see through and yet again and again are many voters aparently "bought" through the money pumped in media campaigns that are on the very same level that is in "modern Europe" only still used by neo nazis as the NPD in Germany, the FN in France, the VB in Belgium and so on. A decade ago, Austria was the same with Jörg Haider, but right now, Switzerland is in my eyes pretty alone with their attitudes.

As discussed in previous threads: I personally have the impression that the campaigns get worse each year and that Switzerland is on a pretty slippery slope. The people I deal with on a daily basis are great, but I find the campaigns more than just a bit annoying. I have a decent job here and pay a fair share of taxes. The reality is that I have a comfortable life here and prefer it over most places in Germany right now. But since I am well educated, I can find a similarly high income in Germany (with a higher tax burden but far lower real estate prices) so simple: At the moment, my life here is on the same level of quality as in Germany. If the climate towards foreigners gets worse - if Switzerland for example leaves Schengen and I need to do all the Schengen visa thing again for my non-EU wife - there is a fair chance that I am out of here. Switzerland does not need me - but I do not necessarily need Switzerland either. It is more like a "marriage of convenience" right now... and I have the feeling that many Germans I talk to here see it in a very similar way.
..you've been hanging out with Wolli haven't you.
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Old 07.12.2010, 12:10
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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And I will certainly not be corrected by some arrogant Prussian who thinks he is here to teach us how things are really done.
Don't rile the Junkers . . . you know how badly that can turn out!
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