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  #121  
Old 07.12.2010, 23:06
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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So it isn't the same. Swiss Germans would never speak high german when talking to each other.
correct, but that doesn't change the fact that they do write bad high german.
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  #122  
Old 07.12.2010, 23:19
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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correct, but that doesn't change the fact that they do write bad high german.
I hope you're aware that swiss high german is not the same as german high german though. So when they don't know how to use "ß" or use words that are inexistent in german high german it doesn't mean they're wrong. I'm not saying they aren't bad at writing german, I wouldn't know.
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  #123  
Old 07.12.2010, 23:26
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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I'm sorry, I got the facts wrong. It's actually about four times as many Swiss in Germany as the other way round. (about .25% of all Germans live in Switzerland, while about 1% of all Swiss live in Germany).
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correct, but that doesn't change the fact that they do write bad high german.

That is settled then: Swiss-Germans at ETH suck at writing high German while Germans at ETH suck at statistics.
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  #124  
Old 07.12.2010, 23:32
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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I hope you're aware that swiss high german is not the same as german high german though.
Sure, I'm not talking about differences between NZZ-German and FAZ-German. I mean that they can't express themselves properly, can't describe complex issues in a precise manner because they lack the vocabulary and construct clumsy sentences because they are used to speak in simple language.
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  #125  
Old 07.12.2010, 23:32
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

I agree that there is a difference of style. They obviously do not learn the same way, the regional dialectal influence is widely accepted as an influence of tone/colour (hard to express, I hope you understand me). To me, it is sometimes strange to have an archaism and an "oral inspired" structure in the same sentence. And I miss some Genitive, really.
The writer as an individual makes however the real difference. Personal taste makes the rest. FrankS, I find you really strict with our Swiss friends. I may just be indulgent or not as good as you in the first place. Who knows.

EDIT: FrankS, are you talking about ingeneers and scientifical technical context? I have more litterature people in mind. Different experiences.

EDIT 2: You are right about complexity of syntax. Definitely a weak point.
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  #126  
Old 07.12.2010, 23:34
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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That is settled then: Swiss-Germans at ETH suck at writing high German while Germans at ETH suck at statistics.
;-) Well, depends. My figure is quite useful to counter these SVP-claims that Germans flea to Switzerland because it's so bad in Germany.
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  #127  
Old 07.12.2010, 23:43
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

Sod all the German dialects, try being born a Scouser, then moving to Woolyback land then the South! It was great moving to Switzerland and being judged on my S/German prowess, until all you snobby Southern gets moved over and started judging me once again on my northern accent. I'd almost forgot about being put into a box.
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  #128  
Old 07.12.2010, 23:44
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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FrankS, I find you really strict with our Swiss friends.
I just find it a pity that they have this barrier in their minds, and to see this barrier grow. I very much agree with this article here: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/kultur/d...story/12552220 Especially as the German (edit: and Austrian) example shows that this bi-lingualism of dialect and standard language is perfectly possible.

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EDIT: FrankS, are you talking about ingeneers and scientifical technical context? I have more litterature people in mind. Different experiences.
Engineers and Economists, not exclusively in a technical context.
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  #129  
Old 07.12.2010, 23:55
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

Engineers and Economists? In that case, I agree with you in any language. Those people are killing the language, it's a blood bath i nFrench for example. Agree also about diglossy/diglossia, it's not exactly a rare thing in the world and there are no reasons why the Swiss would be less able to master this skill. When one plays dumm to long, one actually become dumm.

Back to SVP/UDC/PPS, I feel that they underestimate by far the violence of their words and their ideas, just because they are so used to them. When one has a German background, it sounds further right as they see themselves and are seen to be in the Swiss political system internally.
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  #130  
Old 08.12.2010, 00:03
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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I just find it a pity that they have this barrier in their minds, and to see this barrier grow. I very much agree with this article here: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/kultur/d...story/12552220 Especially as the German (edit: and Austrian) example shows that this bi-lingualism of dialect and standard language is perfectly possible.
I pride myself on the fact that Austrians (not Germans) will take me for a German when I have spent some time with Germans (to really get into it) beforehand. So I do value good (high) German more than a lot of my fellow countrymen and women.

There is, however, quite a difference between Germans (Austrians) and Swiss-Germans when it comes to switching between dialect and standard language.

The Situation in Switzerland is a diglossia, where you have a dialect for everyday purposes and high-german for specific, well defined situations.

In Germany, the limits between everyday language and dialect are much less clear and the rules for switching are more gradual (Dialekt-Standard-Kontinuum).
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  #131  
Old 08.12.2010, 00:17
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Maybe this has been covered before. How do native germans who moved
to CH (native as in white not Turks with German citizenship) feel about
these anti-foreigner campaigns from SVP?

This being englishforum we probably don't have a lot of Germans reading
this. But I'm curious. They can integrate into CH society pretty easily if
they learn Swiss German. Do they view themselves as being the foreigners
targeted? Or do they feel that it's not really about them but about the
"dark skinned" people or the non-german speakers?

DavidSJC
Honestly, I don't feel targeted by the SVP campaigns even though I certainly am. It's related to living in the Suisse Romande: they're not as negative towards Germans than (some of) the Suisse Germans are. I have never experienced any hostility towards me because of my country of origin. J'aime le romande.


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Purely playing the devil's advocate with you here, but could I counter with: "Does it really matter what native Germans think about the SVP any more than what native Swiss folk think of the CDU...?"

It's not like we're about to get a charity vote to try and influence our neighbor's internal politics.
It does, if the native German lives in Switzerland. The SVP politics have a (even profound?) impact on their lives. The other way around it's the same: a Swiss person living in Germany will be interested in CDU politics because this will affect their taxes, etc..
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  #132  
Old 08.12.2010, 00:18
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Sod all the German dialects, try being born a Scouser, then moving to Woolyback land then the South! It was great moving to Switzerland and being judged on my S/German prowess, until all you snobby Southern gets moved over and started judging me once again on my northern accent. I'd almost forgot about being put into a box.
In plain English pleaseWhere is woolyback land ,where south,snobby southern (TI) or (I).Northern accent!I din't know you from Norther Irland
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  #133  
Old 08.12.2010, 00:23
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Back to SVP/UDC/PPS, I feel that they underestimate by far the violence of their words and their ideas, just because they are so used to them. When one has a German background, it sounds further right as they see themselves and are seen to be in the Swiss political system internally.
Wat, gehste tagsüber nie netwörken und abends dann souschalisen?

The fact of the matter is that for quite some time, the SVP was a "staatstragende Partei" (difficult to translate, maybe a party that takes responsibility instead of going for fundamental opposition and demagoguery) who was deeply anchored in the rural protestant parts of Switzerland. Even nowadays, there are quite many politicians on the cantonal and communal level who, while certainly being center-right, engage in constructive politics. That clearly distinguishes them from such parties as NPD and DVU, where the elected representatives are basically stupid idiots, all of them. (Mörgeli et al. are more a*** than idiots, IMHO)

Consider also that while people like Brigitta Gadient (from Graubünden) or Ursula Haller (from Bern) left the SVP recently and joined the BDP, they have spent most of their careers in politics as members of the SVP.

Haller adopted a child from Sri-Lanka while being member of the SVP.

So while people see that SVP is hard right, there is (more like, there was) more to that party than their stupid posters (even for a liberal like me).

Recently though, I am more and more disgusted with the SVP, that is for sure.
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  #134  
Old 08.12.2010, 00:43
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Wat, gehste tagsüber nie netwörken und abends dann souschalisen?

.
Absolute a classic,Cuul.Give me High German anytime
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  #135  
Old 08.12.2010, 01:03
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Wat, gehste tagsüber nie netwörken und abends dann souschalisen?

The fact of the matter is that for quite some time, the SVP was a "staatstragende Partei" (difficult to translate, maybe a party that takes responsibility instead of going for fundamental opposition and demagoguery) who was deeply anchored in the rural protestant parts of Switzerland. Even nowadays, there are quite many politicians on the cantonal and communal level who, while certainly being center-right, engage in constructive politics.
SVP is really two parties that has been able to disguise as one.
The one part of SVP is what you describe above: the party for the small people, deeply rooted in rural Switzerland, with the "getting things done" image.
The other part cares to high-finance (most tax breaks that are marketed as being intended to lower the taxation-level for middle-class people are in reality a massive reduction for high-finance and well-connected, ultra-rich foreigners.
See recent reports in the Tagesanzeiger about many low-tax communities getting into the red in the next years.
This is really a disaster waiting to happen.
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  #136  
Old 08.12.2010, 01:03
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Only in the small towns might one consider it dialect. In the larger cities,
the English is just about like everywhere else in the US, except for the
y'all.
right, except that Texas is dominated by small towns and big villages. Houston, San Antonio, Dallas and Fort Worth should not be overestimated. And in all these cities you have a kind of Yankee ghettos. Do not forget that the dialect/accent is just one of the methods to keep them away from the Yanks, and the Yankees away from the mainstream.

Y..aaall is one, he louly the other
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  #137  
Old 08.12.2010, 01:21
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Really? Stefan Raab, Thomas Gottschalk, Angela Merkel, Uli Hoeness, these people speak a local dialect when at home and among friends and switch to high german when on TV? Don't think so.

It seems to me high german is the spoken language for most germans and not a dialect.

And when germans use dialect on TV they seem to get away with it like Franz Beckenbauer with his "schaun mer mal" while a swiss person saying "luege mer emol" would be considered mental.
There is the "Taunus border". People south of that border (incl Rheinland-Pfalz and Sachsen) by majority speak real dialects. BUT people in Köln in private speak Kölsch (or even worse Platt). Chancellors ? Adenauer at home spoke Kölsch, Erhard spoke Fränkisch, Kiesinger at home spoke Schtuttgarterisch but "Bühnen-Deutsch" when in Federal functions. Different to that, Brandt and Schmidt spoke (Lübeck/Hamburg) what I might regard as Standard German. Kohl spoke Rheinländisch. But Schröder and Merkel speak, just as Brandt+Schmidt, something I regard as Standard language. An old lady out of the family "adopted" out of misery in 1946 by my grandfather who, as bitterly opposed he was to Nazi Germany, in 46 proclaimed that Europe had to grow together, was of Stettin origin and she spoke a truly elegant Standard German of real class. On the encouragement of that grandfather from my motherside, my father adopted a family from the Sudetenland (now Czechia) of East Prussian origin, and I well remember a visit at the home of the old lady in Memmingen, and the nice lady also spoke a distinguished Standard Language and NOT any kind of dialect.
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  #138  
Old 08.12.2010, 01:40
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Except for Gottschalk, one can even tell from their accents in high German where in Germany they come from.
Gottschalk speaks exactly like Ludwig Erhard did .... which reveals his Franken origin. And that is his "official" language, so that it is obvious !
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  #139  
Old 08.12.2010, 01:52
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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So it isn't the same. Swiss Germans would never speak high german when talking to each other.
Not true. An aunt of me who worked as teacher in her native Bernese/Luzernese hinterland and spoke heavily Bernese at a given time moved to Schaffhausen and for decades worked as a teacher there and for the rest of her live only spoke Standard German and was highly popular in Schaffhausen in spite of this. People realized that she had to see that SH-ers did not understand her dialect and so made her decision. She even had "open house" and everybody accepted that on that occasion speaking Standard German was practically given.
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Old 08.12.2010, 02:08
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Re: how do native germans feel about SVP?

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Sure, I'm not talking about differences between NZZ-German and FAZ-German. I mean that they can't express themselves properly, can't describe complex issues in a precise manner because they lack the vocabulary and construct clumsy sentences because they are used to speak in simple language.
A) There is no lack of vocabulary of them but many or even most fear that to use "helvetism" would be an offence. To use such helvetism is what made famous Swiss writers really popular exactly in Germany ! The use of colloquialisms has been important for Edgar Allan Poe, Arthur Conan Doyle and Agatha Christie. The big share of NZZ, Tages Anzeiger and Weltwoche sold all the time in Germany proves that quite many Germans not only accept such Helvetisms, but apparently like it, may be amused about them but pay for the pleasure.
B) I do not really believe that they cannot describe complex issues in a precise manner due to lack of vocabulary but rather due to a lack of self confidence and due to listening too much to dull "local radios". Clumsy sentences are the result of this
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