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-   -   Bundesrat wants to remove incest law (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/101465-bundesrat-wants-remove-incest-law.html)

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 22:44

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042172)
I am sorry, but I am not a lawyer - if you feel that my 'hypothesis' is not a good one, then that is your privilege. And by the same token, I do not feel the need to justify every post that I make here.

I just think there should be an evidence-based approach to policy. Not one based on made up fears.

I don't think you should have to justify 'every post' but certainly in a thread about a contentious political issue you should be prepared to justify your opinions.

Wollishofener 11.12.2010 22:46

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042169)
I did not say that it would be allowed, but simply that it could be the unfortunate effect of relaxing incest laws.

Basically right you are of course ! But, and this is the point in the matter, to drop an outdated and ineffective law is not really relaxing anything. Again, there are enough laws around practically prohibiting incest. The traditionalist parties (SVP-CVP-EVP) opposing even the consideration is not real, but clearly electioneering. Another aspect is that we here have the "English Forum" dominated by people who grew up with the "precedents"-dominated British law systems which is quite different from the Napoleonic System, which is dominated by written stuff and in Switzerland is driven to extreme lengths. This system, while originally devised to reduce the lack of system in pre-Napoleonic stuff, very often has become letters-based and lacking of common sense.

And in the case under discussion, the Federal Council had the idea that the law in question was useless. It was just put up as a "matter" for electioneering reasons !

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 22:51

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1042176)
I just think there should be an evidence-based approach to policy. Not one based on made up fears.

I don't think you should have to justify 'every post' but certainly in a thread about a contentious political issue you should be prepared to justify your opinions.

I have done my best to justify my beliefs in this thread. If that is not enough to satisfy your concerns then I fear that you may be left feeling disappointed.

Wollishofener 11.12.2010 22:59

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042169)
I did not say that it would be allowed, but simply that it could be the unfortunate effect of relaxing incest laws.

We only spoke about ONE law to be dropped, to be dropped because it is outdated and completely ineffective. And as the Bundesrat made it clear, all procedures launched on this point were dropped in the end due to lack of proof. Nobody speaks about "relaxing incest laws" ....

m_dalloway 11.12.2010 23:01

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
If I may add, marriage (and breeding) between cousins is already legal in CH, what they are talking about now, is to abolish the law which prohibits incest between parents & children and among siblings.

Where I see a problem with this is, that victims feel often joint guilt for incestuous rape and are under pressure of their family not to prosecute their perpetrator.

So if this law will be removed, I worry that a lot of incestuous rape cases can't be taken to court, as there's no legal ground to prosecute...


edit: I'm aware of that at present only a few cases based on this incest law are taken forward in CH courts, but I assume a correlation of the fact that this law exists, and prosecution based on abuse go together at present

11.12.2010 23:01

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042182)
I have done my best to justify my beliefs in this thread. If that is not enough to satisfy your concerns then I fear that you may be left feeling disappointed.

You've certainly done your best to try and explain why you don't need to justify your seemingly random keyboard vomits...disappointed, but not surprised.

11.12.2010 23:02

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by m_dalloway (Post 1042189)
So if this law will be removed, I worry that a lot of incestuous rape cases can't be taken to court, as there's no legal ground to prosecute...

So non incestuous rape is legal?

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 23:08

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1042190)
You've certainly done your best to try and explain why you don't need to justify your seemingly random keyboard vomits...disappointed, but not surprised.

You are sooooo funny - really, very amusing ...

m_dalloway 11.12.2010 23:10

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1042191)
So non incestuous rape is legal?

No.
I was talking about the case, if no one files a charge.

11.12.2010 23:14

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by m_dalloway (Post 1042199)
No.
I was talking about the case, if no one files a charge.

I don't understand why it's more likely to bring a charge against incestuous rape under an incest law rather than a rape law.

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 23:17

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1042207)
I don't understand why it's more likely to bring a charge against incestuous rape under an incest law rather than a rape law.

I would have thought that was obvious ...

m_dalloway 11.12.2010 23:18

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1042207)
I don't understand why it's more likely to bring a charge against incestuous rape under an incest law rather than a rape law.

As an example, a case of incest between a father and daugther becomes public.
To file a charge against the father, the daughter would have to claim she had been raped, and the case would be opened.
Under incest law, the state prosecutor can file a case based on incest, without the need of anyone to file a case of rape.

11.12.2010 23:30

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by m_dalloway (Post 1042212)
As an example, a case of incest between a father and daugther becomes public.
To file a charge against the father, the daughter would have to claim she had been raped, and the case would be opened.
Under incest law, the state prosecutor can file a case based on incest, without the need of anyone to file a case of rape.

Why would anyone need to file a complaint? An adult having sex with any minor is statutory rape and will be prosecuted as such. If the father daughter incest was made public, even though incest is illegal, I'd imagine they'd prosecute under statutory rape anyway.

m_dalloway 11.12.2010 23:31

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
We are talking about adults having 'consensual' incestuous relationships.

native 11.12.2010 23:40

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Now something for those who speak German and were in their teens during the 90ies: (ok, wrong forum maybe)

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/394711/G...ive_Die_Aerzte

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschwisterliebe )

SamWeiseVielleicht 11.12.2010 23:46

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by m_dalloway (Post 1042212)
As an example, a case of incest between a father and daugther becomes public.
To file a charge against the father, the daughter would have to claim she had been raped, and the case would be opened.
Under incest law, the state prosecutor can file a case based on incest, without the need of anyone to file a case of rape.

Quote:

Originally Posted by m_dalloway (Post 1042235)
We are talking about adults having 'consensual' incestuous relationships.


I don't get your point: If the daughter was consenting, then she is as much at fault as the father, so the prosecutor would open a case against both of them.

If the daughter was not consenting, then your example (depending on the age of the daughter and the circumstances) would be a case of either statutory rape, rape or coercion, all of whom are "offizialdelikte", meaning that the prosecutor opens a case without the daughter having to file a case (of course, the prosecutor has to know about it, which he does in your example).

m_dalloway 11.12.2010 23:48

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SamWeiseVielleicht (Post 1042249)

If the daughter was not consenting, then your example (depending on the age of the daughter and the circumstances) would be a case of either statutory rape, rape or coercion, all of whom are "offizialdelikte", meaning that the prosecutor opens a case without the daughter having to file a case (of course, the prosecutor has to know about it, which he does in your example).

Which doesn't happen in reality, unfortunately.

Gastro Gnome 12.12.2010 00:03

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042182)
I have done my best to justify my beliefs in this thread. If that is not enough to satisfy your concerns then I fear that you may be left feeling disappointed.

Your sole argument was that it might give potential abusers a green light. Then when I ask you to support your supposition, you refuse and instead resort to groaning. I only get groaned by people who have already been or are about to be banned . . . I think that says something. You really shouldn't get defensive and evasive about your beliefs. If others can't question your opinions, perhaps you should question your own.

Gastro Gnome 12.12.2010 00:07

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by m_dalloway (Post 1042212)
As an example, a case of incest between a father and daugther becomes public.
To file a charge against the father, the daughter would have to claim she had been raped, and the case would be opened.
Under incest law, the state prosecutor can file a case based on incest, without the need of anyone to file a case of rape.

Is this definitely the case? In many jurisdictions under-age sex is statutory rape anyway.

In Switzerland, all recent cases of incest there were child abuse convictions anyway, thus the incest laws were redundant.

SamWeiseVielleicht 12.12.2010 00:39

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by m_dalloway (Post 1042251)
Which doesn't happen in reality, unfortunately.

Yes, but it's the same thing with incest.


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