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-   -   Bundesrat wants to remove incest law (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/101465-bundesrat-wants-remove-incest-law.html)

NSchulzi 12.12.2010 08:03

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1042260)
Your sole argument was that it might give potential abusers a green light. Then when I ask you to support your supposition, you refuse and instead resort to groaning. I only get groaned by people who have already been or are about to be banned . . . I think that says something. You really shouldn't get defensive and evasive about your beliefs. If others can't question your opinions, perhaps you should question your own.

I cannot see into the minds of potential or active paedophiles, but my opinion was, and still is, that the relaxing of certain laws may be seen as a green light, given that they already have a propensity to commit said crimes.


lost_inbroad 12.12.2010 09:54

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042315)
I cannot see into the minds of potential or active paedophiles, but my opinion was, and still is, that the relaxing of certain laws may be seen as a green light, given that they already have a propensity to commit said crimes.


..not only that, but you're decriminalising a very heavy offense for no particular reason at all.

Upthehatters2008 12.12.2010 09:55

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1042064)
so is flying in an aeroplane.

No, not really, Nature has empowered humans to create and use tools for the advancement of the species... Started when we picked up rocks and made weapons and tools, and now includes Scuba, flying and can openers. Nature has paved the way for us.

12.12.2010 10:06

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1042353)
No, not really, Nature has empowered humans to create and use tools for the advancement of the species... Started when we picked up rocks and made weapons and tools, and now includes Scuba, flying and can openers. Nature has paved the way for us.

Nope, not buying that either. Or rather if it's true, then everything's natural including GM crops, nuclear war and methamphetamines. All comes from nature, all made by our big brains and opposable thumbs. You can't say things are natural just when it suits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lost_inbroad (Post 1042351)
..not only that, but you're decriminalising a very heavy offense for no particular reason at all.

Again, you haven't given a reason why incest among adults is an offence.

lost_inbroad 12.12.2010 10:12

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1042359)
Nope, not buying that either. Or rather if it's true, then everything's natural including GM crops, nuclear war and methamphetamines. All comes from nature, all made by our big brains and opposable thumbs. You can't say things are natural just when it suits.



Again, you haven't given a reason why incest among adults is an offence.

..because it is aberrant to human nature. As simple as that. In addition, unless it's a homosexual relationship, if people were to have children..they might not turn out right.

Upthehatters2008 12.12.2010 10:17

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1042359)
Nope, not buying that either. Or rather if it's true, then everything's natural including GM crops, nuclear war and methamphetamines. All comes from nature, all made by our big brains and opposable thumbs. You can't say things are natural just when it...

Natural in this context, for me, is something that Nature allows freely, getting back to the hard wired argument again here. All the things you quote affect the individual ora group, but not the species, so Nature will not intervene.

We have yet to see with GM... Early days.

NSchulzi 12.12.2010 10:17

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1042359)
Again, you haven't given a reason why incest among adults is an offence.

Because, at the moment, it just is:

Article 213 of the Swiss Penal Code prohibits incest. Intercourse among siblings or other persons related by blood in direct line is punishable by up to three years imprisonment.

12.12.2010 10:29

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1042366)
Natural in this context, for me, is something that Nature allows freely, getting back to the hard wired argument again here. All the things you quote affect the individual ora group, but not the species, so Nature will not intervene.

We have yet to see with GM... Early days.

Nature allows incest freely - look, it happens. Because of the social stigma and the law, it probably happens hundreds of times less that it would ordinarily.
Also, we're all hard wired not to fly - try jumping off a building. Only reason why we tolerate aeroplanes against our hardwiring's better judgement is a combination of it looking like it's the inside of a house and getting used to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042367)
Because, at the moment, it just is:

Article 213 of the Swiss Penal Code prohibits incest. Intercourse among siblings or other persons related by blood in direct line is punishable by up to three years imprisonment.

So groanable, I'll just have to resist. This entire discussion is about the validity of that link - it's what they're doubting right now. I mean an actual offence - something LiB finds offensive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lost_inbroad (Post 1042361)
..because it is aberrant to human nature. As simple as that. In addition, unless it's a homosexual relationship, if people were to have children..they might not turn out right.


Again LiB, it's isn't aberrant against human nature to all the people that do it or want to do it. It's aberrant to human nature to you which is great since we won't force you to do it. As for the children aspect, the conversation with homosexuals went like this:

"it's against human nature, the whole point of having sex is to make children"
"really? there are lots of heterosexual couples who use the pill for extended period and look at the orphanages: the people that don't use the pill, probably should have. And if we decide to have children, we'll make an informed and educated decision to have them and pick one up from the orphanage that was left there by one of your irresponsible sex-having hetero lot"

"um.....OK"


So, LiB, why do we have to assume that incestuous couples are stupider than homosexuals with regards to having children? Could it be for the same reason heterosexuals believes homosexuals were stupider than them? Why can't incestuous couples use protection, and then adopt?

lost_inbroad 12.12.2010 10:38

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1042376)
Nature allows incest freely - look, it happens. Because of the social stigma and the law, it probably happens hundreds of times less that it would ordinarily.
Also, we're all hard wired not to fly - try jumping off a building. Only reason why we tolerate aeroplanes against our hardwiring's better judgement is a combination of it looking like it's the inside of a house and getting used to it.


So groanable, I'll just have to resist. This entire discussion is about the validity of that link - it's what they're doubting right now. I mean an actual offence - something LiB finds offensive.




Again LiB, it's isn't aberrant against human nature to all the people that do it or want to do it. It's aberrant to human nature to you which is great since we won't force you to do it. As for the children aspect, the conversation with homosexuals went like this:

"it's against human nature, the whole point of having sex is to make children"
"really? there are lots of heterosexual couples who use the pill for extended period and look at the orphanages: the people that don't use the pill, probably should have. And if we decide to have children, we'll make an informed and educated decision to have them and pick one up from the orphanage that was left there by one of your irresponsible sex-having hetero lot"

"um.....OK"


So, LiB, why do we have to assume that incestuous couples are stupider than homosexuals with regards to having children? Could it be for the same reason heterosexuals believes homosexuals were stupider than them? Why can't incestuous couples use protection, and then adopt?

...uhm, but humans don't just have sex to have children, most of us use it as a means of pleasure. Incest is aberrant to human nature as it can produce children with deficiencies.

Upthehatters2008 12.12.2010 10:46

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Damm Eco, keep your posts shorter, otherwise I can't quote reply from my iPad :msncrazy:

Nature works very slowly, and has almost completeD the rout. Just what percentage of Humans are in incestuous relationships and is this number increasing, from say The Greeks 3000 years ago, or has it decreased to it's present numbers in terms of percentage of participants ?

As for flying, we have conquered it, a natural progression of the species... Very few fear flying. The numbers of people flying is increasing. But neither of us will gain anything with this philosophical tangent, so I am going to put my iPad down, finish off my bacon sarny and cup of tea, get out of bed and head down to the Rapperswil Market.

It has been a pleasant debate, my eyes are a little wider, my mind a little wiser, but my convictions remain the same. ...and that stupid banjo battle from Deliverance has been playing in my head all morning.


12.12.2010 10:50

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lost_inbroad (Post 1042381)
...uhm, but humans don't just have sex to have children, most of us use it as a means of pleasure. Incest is aberrant to human nature as it can produce children with deficiencies.

LiB, that was my point - if incestuous couples use protection, why is it aberrant. "Human nature" is I suppose to produce lots of healthy offspring. Homosexual couples can't do this. Neither can stupid, alcoholic heterosexual couples. Incest is part of human nature.

lost_inbroad 12.12.2010 10:55

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1042394)
LiB, that was my point - if incestuous couples use protection, why is it aberrant. "Human nature" is I suppose to produce lots of healthy offspring. Homosexual couples can't do this. Neither can stupid, alcoholic heterosexual couples. Incest is part of human nature.

...I guess morally that's were western society draws the line...and also, seeing that little challenged boy skillfully playing the Banjo like that sure had me convinced. I haven't seen my cousin in a while anyways...;)

12.12.2010 11:02

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lost_inbroad (Post 1042398)
...I guess morally that's were western society draws the line..

Not so long ago they said the same about homosexuals, black people, disabled people and the list goes on. Which I why I think we need to be super scientific about it instead of falling into the same trap - if incestuous couples are consenting adults, and if they use protection (there's nothing to stop them, same as there's nothing to stop a pregnant mother from drinking vodka everyday - look up foetal alcohol syndrome) then is there anything wrong with it, or is it just not our lifestyle choice?

Kamarate 12.12.2010 11:09

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
I must say that, much as the thought of doing my brother turns my stomach, I have to agree with Economisto. I strongly believe that, as long as what you're doing doesn't hurt someone else, you should be allowed to do it.

So, say incest is legalised and such a couple is forbidden to reproduce... you must remember that contraception doesn't always work. Accidental pregnancies do occur. Would abortion then become compulsary for incestuous couples in that situation?

Gastro Gnome 12.12.2010 11:17

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lost_inbroad (Post 1042351)
..not only that, but you're decriminalising a very heavy offense for no particular reason at all.

No particular reason at all?

There are a few good arguments put forward by those who want to see the law repealed:

1) It's a redundant law. In all recent prosecutions child abuse laws have pertained anyway (this is the main reason put forward by the Bundesrat)
2) The law allows the state to legislate on the behaviour of consenting adults in the bedroom. The state has no justification to intrude.
3) The taboo is ancient and may have stemmed from worries about birth defects etc. Post-contraception this argument no longer applies.

Gastro Gnome 12.12.2010 11:19

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by upthehatters2008 (Post 1042390)
damm eco, keep your posts shorter, otherwise i can't quote reply from my ipad :msncrazy:

Nature works very slowly, and has almost completed the rout. Just what percentage of humans are in incestuous relationships and is this number increasing, from say the greeks 3000 years ago, or has it decreased to it's present numbers in terms of percentage of participants ?

As for flying, we have conquered it, a natural progression of the species... Very few fear flying. The numbers of people flying is increasing. But neither of us will gain anything with this philosophical tangent, so i am going to put my ipad down, finish off my bacon sarny and cup of tea, get out of bed and head down to the rapperswil market.

It has been a pleasant debate, my eyes are a little wider, my mind a little wiser, but my convictions remain the same. ...and that stupid banjo battle from deliverance has been playing in my head all morning.


no one is arguing for incestuous procreation!!!!!!!

12.12.2010 11:19

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamarate (Post 1042410)
I must say that, much as the thought of doing my brother turns my stomach, I have to agree with Economisto. I strongly believe that, as long as what you're doing doesn't hurt someone else, you should be allowed to do it.

So, say incest is legalised and such a couple is forbidden to reproduce... you must remember that contraception doesn't always work. Accidental pregnancies do occur. Would abortion then become compulsary for incestuous couples in that situation?

No. Again, we must come back to the pregnant, alcoholic mother who breaks no law. An incestuous couple doesn't have to use contraception just as ugly, poor, stupid, drug addicted, lazy couples don't have to use contraception before passing on their traits to offspring (saying nothing of genetically disabled people). However, the fact that incestuous couples can reasonably use protection, means that the disabled offspring argument doesn't really hold water.

Gastro Gnome 12.12.2010 11:19

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042367)
Because, at the moment, it just is:

Article 213 of the Swiss Penal Code prohibits incest. Intercourse among siblings or other persons related by blood in direct line is punishable by up to three years imprisonment.

Saying that something 'just is' isn't a reason.

Gastro Gnome 12.12.2010 11:21

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1042366)
Natural in this context, for me, is something that Nature allows freely, getting back to the hard wired argument again here. All the things you quote affect the individual ora group, but not the species, so Nature will not intervene.

We have yet to see with GM... Early days.

Nature with a capital 'N'? Is this like God with a capital 'G'?

Upthehatters2008 12.12.2010 11:21

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1042418)
no one is arguing for incestuous procreation!!!!!!!

...and your point is ?


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