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Old 13.12.2010, 12:43
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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I obviously understand the sentiment, most people would find incest abhorrent, it’s just the language you use to illustrate your point is ambiguous.
Incest, paedophilia, cannibalism, aren't necessarily 'unnatural' acts that is a rather grandiose biblical term, they are just incredibly stupid things for a society to advocate, and in all cases in the past where tribes or groups of humans have carried out these acts it has ultimately led to disease and self elimination.
There is no rational to carry out the above acts and through natural selection peoples that have carried out these acts are now no longer in existence.

Using the terms 'Un-natural' and 'natural-law' could encourage people to look at other seemingly pointless pursuits carried out by consenting adults, and tarring them with the same brush.
1. Technology (contraception) means that incest is no longer genetically dangerous.
2. Drinking while pregnant is legal, so is abortion without consideration of the physical health of the mother/foetus. If these things are legal, the genetic argument against incest is mooted.
3. Legality does not imply societal advocacy. Smoking cigarettes is one of the most dangerous things you can do, and is legal.
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  #282  
Old 13.12.2010, 12:48
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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As per my previous post,

The fact that it happens in such a small number of incidents, the fact that we are hard wired against it, makes it the exception that proves the rule /law.

If you are arguing that it is perfectly natural, there would be far more people doing it, and our gene pool would be in a sorry state.

Again - It is unnatural.
Small number of incidents? On what do you base this? Considering that it has happened throughout history, at times quite legally, this is a stretch at best. But as Economisto said, natural doesn't mean common.

Hard-wired? Again, evidence (observation and scientific studies) argues exactly against this.

Some would argue that our gene pool is in a sorry state.
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  #283  
Old 13.12.2010, 12:50
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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Small number of incidents? On what do you base this? Considering that it has happened throughout history, at times quite legally, this is a stretch at best. But as Economisto said, natural doesn't mean common.

Hard-wired? Again, evidence (observation and scientific studies) argues exactly against this.

Some would argue that our gene pool is in a sorry state.

So are you saying it is common, and natural ?
What do you call natural ? What is your definition, have you seen the definitions above ?
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  #284  
Old 13.12.2010, 12:50
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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Natural does not equal common. We are no more hardwired against incest than we are hardwired against homosexuality.
But we can become hardwired to anything we set our minds to
and bend our minds to just about anything which suits us.
I'm my own god in my own universe and my own law to myself kinda thing.
Really not that complicated actually.

And in that case whatever one hardwires him/herself into one can also unhardwire him(herself of of course.

Its called taking responsibilities for one's own choices and actions isn't it.
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Old 13.12.2010, 12:51
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

how do those making the 'natural' argument square this against gay sex being legal? or do you also think gay sex should also be illegal?
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Old 13.12.2010, 12:53
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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how do those making the 'natural' argument square this against gay sex being legal? or do you also think gay sex should also be illegal?

No, gay sex is quite common , and generally accepted. The gay element of society is a natural element. As much as 10%. Gay sex does not harm the gene pool, and generally does not involve the abuse of minors.
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Old 13.12.2010, 12:59
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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The gay element of society is a natural element. As much as 10%.
So at what percentage would the balance tip? And on what basis do you reach that figure?

There was, of course, a time when homosexuality was not accepted by society.
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Old 13.12.2010, 13:11
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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Just heard a snippet on the radio about the Bundesrat wanting to remove current incest legislation with reference to intercourse between legally aged family members.

Article 213 of Swiss law states:



http://www.tagesschau.sf.tv/Nachrich...e-legalisieren

Rather amazingly (not), the traditionalist parties (SVP, CVP & EDP) are rather opposed to this, one can probably see their point.

Oedipus sends his love....

In my humble opinion, anyone who subscribes to that ("wanting 2 remove") deserves an Assassin.


Call me old fashioned, but I'd like to believe that I'm just going to get a pair of socks or a book voucher from the old folks this Christmas.
Don't feel you have feel u need to apologise for being "old fashioned, we would all be much better of if many more were!
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  #289  
Old 13.12.2010, 13:23
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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No, gay sex is quite common , and generally accepted. The gay element of society is a natural element. As much as 10%. Gay sex does not harm the gene pool, and generally does not involve the abuse of minors.
I was trying to imply these ramifications of your statements with regard to homosexuality in my post, but you seem to have blundered into a bit of a minefield here!

Homosexuality actually isn't that common, approx. 1 in ten males are probably more attracted to men than women, (one on every football team, if you like). But their presence makes a lot of sense in terms of social cohesion in small groups such men can temper the attitudes of the hyper aggressive members of a tribe/ small group.

Incest in tribal sense is like being the only caveman that enjoys leaving the cave and stroking wild lions, one can confidently assume that that caveman didn't have a line of descendents!
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  #290  
Old 13.12.2010, 13:37
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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So at what percentage would the balance tip? And on what basis do you reach that figure?

There was, of course, a time when homosexuality was not accepted by society.

Hard to say... I have googled etc. But presuambly small enough to never actually having encountered it, statistically small enough to cause anger and outrage within normal family units, which in turn is enough to have created a law. Given that this all occurs behind closed doors, and most victims are underage, actual figures will be hard to extrapolate. Consensual sex between two blood related adults, I would argue though , forms a very small part of the whole incest picture. They are unaturally unatural
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  #291  
Old 13.12.2010, 13:45
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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Hard to say... I have googled etc. But presuambly small enough to never actually having encountered it, statistically small enough to cause anger and outrage within normal family units, which in turn is enough to have created a law. Given that this all occurs behind closed doors, and most victims are underage, actual figures will be hard to extrapolate. Consensual sex between two blood related adults, I would argue though , forms a very small part of the whole incest picture. They are unaturally unatural
Erm . . . I'm just talking generally about what percentage would be important for you to consider something (anything) uncommon. 10% isn't (for some reason) but some amount less than that (5%, 1%) is. Where are you drawing your line.

I don't think you should be looking at a situation and THEN deciding what figure you think should be applied.

Again though, you're talking about abuse, not merely incest. The real issue in the cases you mention is about child abuse and there are, quite rightly, laws against that (because harm is being done and consent cannot be provided by children).

BTW - If you're going to keep going on about 'unnatural' at least spell it correctly.
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Old 13.12.2010, 13:56
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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Given that this all occurs behind closed doors, and most victims are underage, actual figures will be hard to extrapolate. Consensual sex between two blood related adults, I would argue though , forms a very small part of the whole incest picture. They are unnaturally unnatural
That's not what this proposed incest law abolition is about. Although I'm sure that you are right, under-aged sex is still a punishable crime whatever the relationship between the parties is. And that's a good thing.
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  #293  
Old 13.12.2010, 14:00
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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So are you saying it is common, and natural ?
What do you call natural ? What is your definition, have you seen the definitions above ?
I did not say it is common. As for whether it is natural, I naturally applied your definition concerning natural laws discovered through observation of human behavior.

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Consensual sex between two blood related adults, I would argue though , forms a very small part of the whole incest picture.
And this is exactly what most of us have been talking about because this (consensual sex between adult blood relatives) is what would be affected by the removal of the law from the Swiss criminal code.
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  #294  
Old 13.12.2010, 20:10
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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So... going back to the original subject: given the fact that there is such a thing as contraception, and that, therefore, all acts of sexual intercourse between blood relations do not necessarily lead to the birth of a hideous monster child with sixteen fingers and a single eye in the middle of its deformed forehead, is there any good reason why the government should be involved in what two consenting adults do in the bedroom?
You keep saying that there is contraception and based on this all consenting adults should be allowed to have sex, whether they are related or not. I think that if the law allows consanguinous couples there is no way to forbid them to actually have children.

Or would you let them swear on the bible to stay childless?
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Old 13.12.2010, 20:16
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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You keep saying that there is contraception and based on this all consenting adults should be allowed to have sex, whether they are related or not. I think that if the law allows consanguinous couples there is no way to forbid them to actually have children.

Or would you let them swear on the bible to stay childless?
Isn't that a bit like saying there's no way to stop someone having sex? In which case, why have a law at all? You have laws to stop people doing things . . . in this case we don't mind the sex, but we are worried about the children . . . so that's how you should frame the law.
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Old 13.12.2010, 20:33
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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You keep saying that there is contraception and based on this all consenting adults should be allowed to have sex, whether they are related or not. I think that if the law allows consanguinous couples there is no way to forbid them to actually have children.

Or would you let them swear on the bible to stay childless?
Them or others...

A lot of people shouldn't have children. Some are too old, some are not DNA compatible some are just bad people, etc.

I don't agree that children should born from incest. It is against common sense to me. I find it already pretty weird to have animals doing it. But each one their own, if someone wants to have sex with his consentant brother, who are we to tell them not to?

2 adults, 2 agreements = their problems. A drug adict shouldn't have children either but that doesn't stop them to do so. Some have good common sense and some were not there when the common sense passed.

Between cousins? I wouldn't do it, but you'll find it very difficult to convince me that it is ''wrong''. Too many exemples that I know that turned all find!
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Old 13.12.2010, 20:38
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

I am close to certain that incest between concenting adult is not illegal as such in France, Belgium and Netherlands. Anything non-concensual and non-aldult stays illegal.
I wonder if there are other countries like that.
By googling, I saw that UK extended incest laws to step siblings (no idea if source is reliable).

EDIT: New French law 8th.Feb.2010 - incest in now in the French code civil.

EDIT2: Chart from 2009, so not relating the change in France, from a Belgium association for incest penalization. Quite complex juridical topic, actually. IN FRENCH, though:
http://www.lavoixdelenfant.org/docs/...se/Tableau.pdf
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Old 13.12.2010, 20:39
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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.....
You have laws to stop people doing things . . . in this case we don't mind the sex, but we are worried about the children . . . so that's how you should frame the law.
How should a law be framed to stop consanguinous couples to have children when it is legal for them to have sex?

For most people it is a natural wish to procreate with your partner. If a partnership between family members is legalized it would support this wish.

Would you allowed them to adopt children? What about tax benefits? Marriage or just registered partnership?
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  #299  
Old 13.12.2010, 20:48
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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Isn't that a bit like saying there's no way to stop someone having sex? In which case, why have a law at all? You have laws to stop people doing things . . . in this case we don't mind the sex, but we are worried about the children . . . so that's how you should frame the law.
Fact is, it's clearly impossible to enforce the law in this instance. The offspring will be the result of the supposed crime at which point the offense is 9 months back.

If I may draw a parallel to the world of sexual crimes, I think the laws that are in place to protect victims of sexual abuse are, at best, wishful thinking and at worst, just a convenient way of society trying to legislate something which has too may parameters to ever be conclusive. Take any form of consensual intercourse against alleged rape. Now prove which was which. Even if the circumstances point to rape, how is one ever to know what took place if one party is more convincing than the other and the victim has on previous occasions (for example) had consensual sex with the perpetrator? As has been mentioned, we're all hardwired to have intercourse, but a playful "no" could have meant a genuine "no" and a crime is committed, it's a very thin line and I'm sure we'll never know the true figures of abuse because of the lack of victim reporting.

If incest were removed from the Swiss penal code, I would know of no other crime other than rape which on a purely physical basis, is identical to an innocent act.
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Old 13.12.2010, 20:48
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Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

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Them or others...

A lot of people shouldn't have children. Some are too old, some are not DNA compatible some are just bad people, etc.

I don't agree that children should born from incest. It is against common sense to me. I find it already pretty weird to have animals doing it. But each one their own, if someone wants to have sex with his consentant brother, who are we to tell them not to?

2 adults, 2 agreements = their problems. A drug adict shouldn't have children either but that doesn't stop them to do so. Some have good common sense and some were not there when the common sense passed.

Between cousins? I wouldn't do it, but you'll find it very difficult to convince me that it is ''wrong''. Too many exemples that I know that turned all find!
I think that many children whose parents are addicts or 'bad' people turn out fine. From a genetic's point of view they get their DNA from two unrelated people, so a smaller chance of getting a genetically caused disease. A brother and a sister share a lot of DNA and also share the same mutations that can lead to diseases. These accumulate in the offspring and significantly increase the chance of developing the disease.
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