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-   -   Bundesrat wants to remove incest law (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/101465-bundesrat-wants-remove-incest-law.html)

Gastro Gnome 13.12.2010 22:42

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Assassin (Post 1044023)
Fact is, it's clearly impossible to enforce the law in this instance. The offspring will be the result of the supposed crime at which point the offense is 9 months back.

If I may draw a parallel to the world of sexual crimes, I think the laws that are in place to protect victims of sexual abuse are, at best, wishful thinking and at worst, just a convenient way of society trying to legislate something which has too may parameters to ever be conclusive. Take any form of consensual intercourse against alleged rape. Now prove which was which. Even if the circumstances point to rape, how is one ever to know what took place if one party is more convincing than the other and the victim has on previous occasions (for example) had consensual sex with the perpetrator? As has been mentioned, we're all hardwired to have intercourse, but a playful "no" could have meant a genuine "no" and a crime is committed, it's a very thin line and I'm sure we'll never know the true figures of abuse because of the lack of victim reporting.

There are rape convictions.

There are other types of evidence other than just witness testimony. And witness testimonies are examined to find flaws.

It's often difficult, but there is a point to these laws.

I think the example you give is only one particular kind of sexual crime and not necessarily the most serious.

Nil 13.12.2010 23:12

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zymogen (Post 1044025)
I think that many children whose parents are addicts or 'bad' people turn out fine. From a genetic's point of view they get their DNA from two unrelated people, so a smaller chance of getting a genetically caused disease. A brother and a sister share a lot of DNA and also share the same mutations that can lead to diseases. These accumulate in the offspring and significantly increase the chance of developing the disease.

Of course when talting about a couple brother-sister. My point about drugs addicts is pretty good, you should see some kids when they born how much physical problems they have.

Sex between two adults can result with a baby no matter what is their connections. I am not open about it, I am not saying that it is ok but I believe that we can't do much more than a 8 years old girl who fall pregnant, a 68 years old mother who fall pregnant, a trisomy woman who fall pregnant, etc.

I am sure many incestuous couples are responsable about it and are doing what it seems right to avoid it and some aren't. Like what we see in the whole population, some are repsonsable, some aren't.

But who are we to tell them that they can't have kids and what will be the method to be sure that doesn't happen?

panda 14.12.2010 18:52

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Nil, just asking in case I have misunderstood, are you saying society has no right not to tell a brother and sister or even father and daughter to have kids?

14.12.2010 18:53

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by panda (Post 1044903)
Nil, just asking in case I have misunderstood, are you saying society has no right not to tell a brother and sister or even father and daughter to have kids?

I think you mean the opposite of this?

panda 14.12.2010 18:55

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1044905)
I think you mean the opposite of this?

sorry long and confusing day - but my question still stands

andreaa 14.12.2010 19:53

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimster (Post 1041463)
How about the children? They or society are the ones that will have to deal with their disabilities and deformities that may result from this and even if all is okay genetically, there is still the stigma associated with this. Most of the comments focus on the legality and practically of the law and the view of the adults involved...how about from the child's perspective -how do you think you would feel being the byproduct of an incest relationship? where your father is also your uncle and your mother is also your aunt?

I am all for consenting adults making their own choices, as they need to live with the consequences of these choices. Sex should not be banned for consenting adults (even if incest) but I would be for regulations and guidelines regarding children of these relationship. I know this is not politically correct at all and this is the only situation I feel that having children should be regulated. Respect to Odile's aunt for making what I think the right conscious choice to not have children.

In line with this you would forbid people with genetic disorder to have children as well, wouldn't you?

zymogen 15.12.2010 01:34

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by andreaa (Post 1044956)
In line with this you would forbid people with genetic disorder to have children as well, wouldn't you?

If it concerns two people with the same genetic disorder (something like Huntington's) I'd say having kids is not a smart decision.

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 01:55

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by andreaa (Post 1044956)
In line with this you would forbid people with genetic disorder to have children as well, wouldn't you?

What would you say if you were the unborn child, facing great risk of a debilitating painful genetic disorder ? Conceive me or not ?

Gastro Gnome 15.12.2010 02:03

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045213)
What would you say if you were the unborn child, facing great risk of a debilitating painful genetic disorder ? Conceive me or not ?

The logical consequence of what you are proposing is the termination of foetuses who are likely to suffer pain after birth. I don't think many would find that acceptable.

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 03:10

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1045218)
The logical consequence of what you are proposing is the termination of foetuses who are likely to suffer pain after birth. I don't think many would find that acceptable.

No, I said pre-conception. A what-if scenario.

Wollishofener 15.12.2010 03:28

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1045218)
The logical consequence of what you are proposing is the termination of foetuses who are likely to suffer pain after birth. I don't think many would find that acceptable.

"pain after birth", maybe some temporary problems, all such is not really bad, and is NOT "debilitating". The problem with incest is that the resulting degeneration problems are well known. But, and this is the idea behind the abolishing of that law, there are enough laws and regulation to make marriages between close relatives practically impossible, while at the other hand nobody in reality can stop relatives having sex with each other.
-
What you however hint at is to adopt the, in the words of late Jrg Haider, "quite decent health policy" of the NSDAP in Germany, which would be, quite literally, an act of "overkilling"

OSueco 15.12.2010 09:35

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
I really....really....really hope the most of you are joking when you're saying that you are PRO of removing the incest law...please leave it there, it will give a clear signal to the sickos! What's next, fathers could be able to marry their daughters? God this makes me sick!

Assassin 15.12.2010 09:50

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1045218)
The logical consequence of what you are proposing is the termination of foetuses who are likely to suffer pain after birth. I don't think many would find that acceptable.

It's the way the human race is headed though don't you think? When I first watched the movie "Gattaca" (science fiction flick with a two tiered human society, the perfect build and imperfects) I thought it was way off in the future. Now, I'm not so sure. We humans are really trying to tweak nature to represent our interpretation of perfection. I don't know if that's our true rle in natural evolution or whether we've just taken it upon ourselves to take over the management of the planet and all the species that have the (mis) fortune of sharing it with us.

And the question is, which set of parents wouldn't want a perfect baby with all the bits in the right places? Nature isn't kind to mis-formed or disabled animals, it's only humans that accommodate physically and mentally disable people based on emotional and heartfelt caring because we feel that we all have the same right to a life of fulfillment and purpose. That's probably blown this debate out of context of this thread.....

Assassin 15.12.2010 09:53

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1045253)
I really....really....really hope the most of you are joking when you're saying that you are PRO of removing the incest law...please leave it there, it will give a clear signal to the sickos! What's next, fathers could be able to marry their daughters? God this makes me sick!

Have you actually read through the posts on this thread? If so, you haven't really grasped the debate at all. You're either unable to state your point of view in an eloquent way, which is OK if you're just shooting a quick reply, but why the ridiculous exaggeration with the marital sentence? That's not up for discussion. Bring your arguments, but at least bring some facts to the table or your slant on the debate, we've moved on from caveman antics.

15.12.2010 10:21

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Assassin (Post 1045260)
Have you actually read through the posts on this thread? If so, you haven't really grasped the debate at all. You're either unable to state your point of view in an eloquent way, which is OK if you're just shooting a quick reply, but why the ridiculous exaggeration with the marital sentence? That's not up for discussion. Bring your arguments, but at least bring some facts to the table or your slant on the debate, we've moved on from caveman antics.

what he said. It seems you've read nothing.

But it seem like many of the recent posters have totally missed the point, and many of the pro-anti-incest-law posters seem to be missing the point on purpose. There is no genetic argument here because:

1. Two people with genetic disorders can legally have children even where the chances of a child being born with the same genetic disorder are 100%. Those with dwarfism/achondroplasia marry and have children the same disorder. Ban them? Fine, but if we're doing that, we're making restrictions on illogical forum posters too.

2. Contraception can reliably prevent offspring.

3. Those born with severe genetic disorders are unlikely to further reproduce.

WhySoSerious? 15.12.2010 10:47

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Registered to say that Gastro guy has got it right. No one is being forced to indulge in monkey business. Live and let live.

Out of curiosity did any of you find your cousin sisters attractive? I sure did when I was a teenager. Them being fit did not make matters easy.

15.12.2010 10:50

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WhySoSerious? (Post 1045287)
Registered to say that Gastro guy has got it right.

It's pronounced economisto. e.c.o.n.o.m.i.s.t.o


Welcome to the forum btw. :cool:

panda 15.12.2010 10:55

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Assassin (Post 1045260)
but why the ridiculous exaggeration with the marital sentence?

If close relatives should be allowed to have sex and children then shouldn't the marriage question come up? Would that be taboo but everything else just fine?

WhySoSerious? 15.12.2010 11:00

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1045288)
It's pronounced economisto. e.c.o.n.o.m.i.s.t.o


Welcome to the forum btw. :cool:

Thanks. You got it right too.

Common sense is required instead of knee jerk sentimental clap trap that is being spewed from some who are up in arms.

crazysniper 15.12.2010 11:01

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
This is insane. Whoever is trying to remove this Law must be a F-eking Psycho.

Its like legalizing rape in a way for f-eck sake!. Absolute Madness!


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