Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #301  
Old 13.12.2010, 21:42
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,553
Groaned at 49 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
Fact is, it's clearly impossible to enforce the law in this instance. The offspring will be the result of the supposed crime at which point the offense is 9 months back.

If I may draw a parallel to the world of sexual crimes, I think the laws that are in place to protect victims of sexual abuse are, at best, wishful thinking and at worst, just a convenient way of society trying to legislate something which has too may parameters to ever be conclusive. Take any form of consensual intercourse against alleged rape. Now prove which was which. Even if the circumstances point to rape, how is one ever to know what took place if one party is more convincing than the other and the victim has on previous occasions (for example) had consensual sex with the perpetrator? As has been mentioned, we're all hardwired to have intercourse, but a playful "no" could have meant a genuine "no" and a crime is committed, it's a very thin line and I'm sure we'll never know the true figures of abuse because of the lack of victim reporting.
There are rape convictions.

There are other types of evidence other than just witness testimony. And witness testimonies are examined to find flaws.

It's often difficult, but there is a point to these laws.

I think the example you give is only one particular kind of sexual crime and not necessarily the most serious.
Reply With Quote
  #302  
Old 13.12.2010, 22:12
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,356
Groaned at 428 Times in 333 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
I think that many children whose parents are addicts or 'bad' people turn out fine. From a genetic's point of view they get their DNA from two unrelated people, so a smaller chance of getting a genetically caused disease. A brother and a sister share a lot of DNA and also share the same mutations that can lead to diseases. These accumulate in the offspring and significantly increase the chance of developing the disease.
Of course when talting about a couple brother-sister. My point about drugs addicts is pretty good, you should see some kids when they born how much physical problems they have.

Sex between two adults can result with a baby no matter what is their connections. I am not open about it, I am not saying that it is ok but I believe that we can't do much more than a 8 years old girl who fall pregnant, a 68 years old mother who fall pregnant, a trisomy woman who fall pregnant, etc.

I am sure many incestuous couples are responsable about it and are doing what it seems right to avoid it and some aren't. Like what we see in the whole population, some are repsonsable, some aren't.

But who are we to tell them that they can't have kids and what will be the method to be sure that doesn't happen?
Reply With Quote
  #303  
Old 14.12.2010, 17:52
panda's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 168
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 90 Times in 57 Posts
panda is considered knowledgeablepanda is considered knowledgeablepanda is considered knowledgeable
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Nil, just asking in case I have misunderstood, are you saying society has no right not to tell a brother and sister or even father and daughter to have kids?
Reply With Quote
  #304  
Old 14.12.2010, 17:53
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
Nil, just asking in case I have misunderstood, are you saying society has no right not to tell a brother and sister or even father and daughter to have kids?
I think you mean the opposite of this?
Reply With Quote
  #305  
Old 14.12.2010, 17:55
panda's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 168
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 90 Times in 57 Posts
panda is considered knowledgeablepanda is considered knowledgeablepanda is considered knowledgeable
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
I think you mean the opposite of this?
sorry long and confusing day - but my question still stands
Reply With Quote
  #306  
Old 14.12.2010, 18:53
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Zurich (not yet)
Posts: 22
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
andreaa has no particular reputation at present
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
How about the children? They or society are the ones that will have to deal with their disabilities and deformities that may result from this and even if all is okay genetically, there is still the stigma associated with this. Most of the comments focus on the legality and practically of the law and the view of the adults involved...how about from the child's perspective -how do you think you would feel being the byproduct of an incest relationship? where your father is also your uncle and your mother is also your aunt?

I am all for consenting adults making their own choices, as they need to live with the consequences of these choices. Sex should not be banned for consenting adults (even if incest) but I would be for regulations and guidelines regarding children of these relationship. I know this is not politically correct at all and this is the only situation I feel that having children should be regulated. Respect to Odile's aunt for making what I think the right conscious choice to not have children.
In line with this you would forbid people with genetic disorder to have children as well, wouldn't you?
Reply With Quote
  #307  
Old 15.12.2010, 00:34
zymogen's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: ...
Posts: 948
Groaned at 9 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 1,082 Times in 454 Posts
zymogen has a reputation beyond reputezymogen has a reputation beyond reputezymogen has a reputation beyond reputezymogen has a reputation beyond reputezymogen has a reputation beyond reputezymogen has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
In line with this you would forbid people with genetic disorder to have children as well, wouldn't you?
If it concerns two people with the same genetic disorder (something like Huntington's) I'd say having kids is not a smart decision.
Reply With Quote
  #308  
Old 15.12.2010, 00:55
Upthehatters2008's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the kitchen at parties.
Posts: 4,540
Groaned at 204 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,078 Times in 2,378 Posts
Upthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
In line with this you would forbid people with genetic disorder to have children as well, wouldn't you?
What would you say if you were the unborn child, facing great risk of a debilitating painful genetic disorder ? Conceive me or not ?
Reply With Quote
  #309  
Old 15.12.2010, 01:03
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,553
Groaned at 49 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
What would you say if you were the unborn child, facing great risk of a debilitating painful genetic disorder ? Conceive me or not ?
The logical consequence of what you are proposing is the termination of foetuses who are likely to suffer pain after birth. I don't think many would find that acceptable.
Reply With Quote
  #310  
Old 15.12.2010, 02:10
Upthehatters2008's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the kitchen at parties.
Posts: 4,540
Groaned at 204 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,078 Times in 2,378 Posts
Upthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
The logical consequence of what you are proposing is the termination of foetuses who are likely to suffer pain after birth. I don't think many would find that acceptable.
No, I said pre-conception. A what-if scenario.
Reply With Quote
  #311  
Old 15.12.2010, 02:28
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
The logical consequence of what you are proposing is the termination of foetuses who are likely to suffer pain after birth. I don't think many would find that acceptable.
"pain after birth", maybe some temporary problems, all such is not really bad, and is NOT "debilitating". The problem with incest is that the resulting degeneration problems are well known. But, and this is the idea behind the abolishing of that law, there are enough laws and regulation to make marriages between close relatives practically impossible, while at the other hand nobody in reality can stop relatives having sex with each other.
-
What you however hint at is to adopt the, in the words of late Jörg Haider, "quite decent health policy" of the NSDAP in Germany, which would be, quite literally, an act of "overkilling"
Reply With Quote
  #312  
Old 15.12.2010, 08:35
OSueco's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Aargau
Posts: 1,466
Groaned at 317 Times in 193 Posts
Thanked 1,265 Times in 624 Posts
OSueco has a reputation beyond reputeOSueco has a reputation beyond reputeOSueco has a reputation beyond reputeOSueco has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

I really....really....really hope the most of you are joking when you're saying that you are PRO of removing the incest law...please leave it there, it will give a clear signal to the sickos! What's next, fathers could be able to marry their daughters? God this makes me sick!
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users groan at OSueco for this post:
  #313  
Old 15.12.2010, 08:50
Assassin's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chasing clouds
Posts: 4,023
Groaned at 180 Times in 123 Posts
Thanked 11,558 Times in 3,148 Posts
Assassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
The logical consequence of what you are proposing is the termination of foetuses who are likely to suffer pain after birth. I don't think many would find that acceptable.
It's the way the human race is headed though don't you think? When I first watched the movie "Gattaca" (science fiction flick with a two tiered human society, the perfect build and imperfects) I thought it was way off in the future. Now, I'm not so sure. We humans are really trying to tweak nature to represent our interpretation of perfection. I don't know if that's our true rôle in natural evolution or whether we've just taken it upon ourselves to take over the management of the planet and all the species that have the (mis) fortune of sharing it with us.

And the question is, which set of parents wouldn't want a perfect baby with all the bits in the right places? Nature isn't kind to mis-formed or disabled animals, it's only humans that accommodate physically and mentally disable people based on emotional and heartfelt caring because we feel that we all have the same right to a life of fulfillment and purpose. That's probably blown this debate out of context of this thread.....
__________________
Crash your karma into little bits of happiness
Reply With Quote
  #314  
Old 15.12.2010, 08:53
Assassin's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Chasing clouds
Posts: 4,023
Groaned at 180 Times in 123 Posts
Thanked 11,558 Times in 3,148 Posts
Assassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond reputeAssassin has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
I really....really....really hope the most of you are joking when you're saying that you are PRO of removing the incest law...please leave it there, it will give a clear signal to the sickos! What's next, fathers could be able to marry their daughters? God this makes me sick!
Have you actually read through the posts on this thread? If so, you haven't really grasped the debate at all. You're either unable to state your point of view in an eloquent way, which is OK if you're just shooting a quick reply, but why the ridiculous exaggeration with the marital sentence? That's not up for discussion. Bring your arguments, but at least bring some facts to the table or your slant on the debate, we've moved on from caveman antics.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Assassin for this useful post:
  #315  
Old 15.12.2010, 09:21
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
Have you actually read through the posts on this thread? If so, you haven't really grasped the debate at all. You're either unable to state your point of view in an eloquent way, which is OK if you're just shooting a quick reply, but why the ridiculous exaggeration with the marital sentence? That's not up for discussion. Bring your arguments, but at least bring some facts to the table or your slant on the debate, we've moved on from caveman antics.
what he said. It seems you've read nothing.

But it seem like many of the recent posters have totally missed the point, and many of the pro-anti-incest-law posters seem to be missing the point on purpose. There is no genetic argument here because:

1. Two people with genetic disorders can legally have children even where the chances of a child being born with the same genetic disorder are 100%. Those with dwarfism/achondroplasia marry and have children the same disorder. Ban them? Fine, but if we're doing that, we're making restrictions on illogical forum posters too.

2. Contraception can reliably prevent offspring.

3. Those born with severe genetic disorders are unlikely to further reproduce.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank for this useful post:
  #316  
Old 15.12.2010, 09:47
WhySoSerious?'s Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: ZH
Posts: 138
Groaned at 17 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 108 Times in 56 Posts
WhySoSerious? has become a little unpopular
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Registered to say that Gastro guy has got it right. No one is being forced to indulge in monkey business. Live and let live.

Out of curiosity did any of you find your cousin sisters attractive? I sure did when I was a teenager. Them being fit did not make matters easy.
Reply With Quote
  #317  
Old 15.12.2010, 09:50
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
Registered to say that Gastro guy has got it right.
It's pronounced economisto. e.c.o.n.o.m.i.s.t.o


Welcome to the forum btw.
Reply With Quote
  #318  
Old 15.12.2010, 09:55
panda's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 168
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 90 Times in 57 Posts
panda is considered knowledgeablepanda is considered knowledgeablepanda is considered knowledgeable
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
but why the ridiculous exaggeration with the marital sentence?
If close relatives should be allowed to have sex and children then shouldn't the marriage question come up? Would that be taboo but everything else just fine?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank panda for this useful post:
  #319  
Old 15.12.2010, 10:00
WhySoSerious?'s Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: ZH
Posts: 138
Groaned at 17 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 108 Times in 56 Posts
WhySoSerious? has become a little unpopular
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
It's pronounced economisto. e.c.o.n.o.m.i.s.t.o


Welcome to the forum btw.
Thanks. You got it right too.

Common sense is required instead of knee jerk sentimental clap trap that is being spewed from some who are up in arms.
Reply With Quote
  #320  
Old 15.12.2010, 10:01
crazysniper's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: schaffhausen
Posts: 187
Groaned at 7 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 26 Times in 15 Posts
crazysniper has slipped a little
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

This is insane. Whoever is trying to remove this Law must be a F-eking Psycho.

Its like legalizing rape in a way for f-eck sake!. Absolute Madness!
Reply With Quote
This user groans at crazysniper for this post:
Reply

Tags
bundesrat, family, incest, intercourse, legislation




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
We have a new girlie in the Bundesrat Assassin Swiss politics/news 68 29.09.2010 17:38
Didier Burkhalter, the new Bundesrat Wollishofener Swiss politics/news 13 12.10.2009 09:05
Election of Bundesrat Guest Swiss politics/news 138 07.03.2008 07:09
Remove Baseboards for Wardrobe? mgmidget72 Housing in general 7 06.09.2007 09:42


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0