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-   -   Bundesrat wants to remove incest law (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/101465-bundesrat-wants-remove-incest-law.html)

jj muge 15.12.2010 12:41

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045406)
How many times have I said that I don't ?

This thread has evolved into a wider incest discussion, whilst remaining acceptably on topic. Incest is a far more severe form of Rape, the law should not be dropped, but amended and punishments/deterrents increased.

amended in which way?

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 12:44

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jj muge (Post 1045424)
amended in which way?

Well, I think we can all agree that consenting adults should not be guilty.
Father-daughter incest may be seen as far more hideous than younger sister older brother perhaps. Make parents responsible for under-age siblings...Fine tune it. Up the penalties. Existing child abuse and rape laws are not specialised or focused enough to deal with the greater crime of incest.

WhySoSerious? 15.12.2010 12:44

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045390)
Re-read the question before my answer.

Re-read my answer.

Why so serious? I have read your posts and they have no merit. Just lot of insecure arguments.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1045401)
So why do you want to criminalise them?

You are not going to get a sensible logical answer from Upthehatters2008. I have been following the thread for last two days and every time you come to talking some sense in to him he jumps back to his default position.

Guy thanked one of my posts while privately red carding the same post for "posting in haste and ignorance." LOL Maybe he posted in haste and instead of groaning he thanked me.

WhySoSerious? 15.12.2010 12:48

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045429)
Well, I think we can all agree that consenting adults should not be guilty.


Do we finally? So you agree that Bundarest is correct in decriminalizing it when consenting adults are involved?

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 12:49

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WhySoSerious? (Post 1045430)
Why so serious? I have read your posts and they have no merit. Just lot of insecure arguments.




You are not going to get a sensible logical answer from Upthehatters2008. I have been following the thread for last two days and every time you come to talking some sense in to him he jumps back to his default position.

Guy thanked one of my posts while privately red carding the same post for "posting in haste and ignorance." LOL Maybe he posted in haste and instead of groaning he thanked me.



Wrong, I dis-involved myself from this thread over the last two days, I re-entered this morning.

As for a sensible posting, I refer back to your your avatar reference.

My default position has also been shifted thanks to GG and DB et al. They gracefully allowed me to see the light in consenting adult incest.

I am afraid you are wrong on all counts . Me too, on one count, I hit the Thanks button instead of the groan button lol ! Thanks for pointing that out ;-)

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 12:50

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WhySoSerious? (Post 1045436)
Do we finally?

Having been reminded that incest is not just about child abuse and can involve consenting adults, I have maintained this position from an early outset.

Also, the law is to be dropped because of the very few incidences, not to legalise sex between blood line adults.

I argue to keep it, fine tune it , and make the penalties harsher, to reflect greater crime that incest is vs rape/child abuse.

jj muge 15.12.2010 13:08

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045429)
Well, I think we can all agree that consenting adults should not be guilty.
Father-daughter incest may be seen as far more hideous than younger sister older brother perhaps. Make parents responsible for under-age siblings...Fine tune it. Up the penalties. Existing child abuse and rape laws are not specialised or focused enough to deal with the greater crime of incest.

yes I have some problems with thinking about the parent-offspring relationship as just an act concerning two consenting adults, if the dependancy (emotional and physical during formative years) ever allows for real consent.:confused: Then again I'm not a psychologist and I guess the same situation would be legal in some cases where both are not blood related or otherwise recognised as parents (adoption).

Gastro Gnome 15.12.2010 13:12

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045429)
Well, I think we can all agree that consenting adults should not be guilty.
Father-daughter incest may be seen as far more hideous than younger sister older brother perhaps. Make parents responsible for under-age siblings...Fine tune it. Up the penalties. Existing child abuse and rape laws are not specialised or focused enough to deal with the greater crime of incest.

I agree that existing child abuse laws could be strengthened to include cases of parent-child underage incest. However, as this is already illegal (because it's underage/abuse) would the strengthening have any effect? Firstly would it be an additional deterrent? Maybe, but I haven't seen any experts recommending this or any other evidence that it would be a deterrent. Secondly, would it have a practical benefit for those trying to prosecute malign parents? I don't think prosectors are asking for extra powers, in fact the case being made is that all recent cases of child incest were covered by child abuse laws anyway. So . . . no harm in strengthening child incest laws, but is it necessary? Probably not.

However, there is a political case for this kind of move as it would allay fears about the repeal of the incest law and draw the lines clearly.

WhySoSerious? 15.12.2010 13:15

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045437)
Wrong, I dis-involved myself from this thread over the last two days, I re-entered this morning.

Well I read the whole thread in last two days so it seems like you were all over. Anyway there are posts from you on the13th so you did post in last two days. Point was that you seem to go around in circles ;)
Quote:

I am afraid you are wrong on all counts .
On all counts? You seem like a fun person. I see that you went back and quickly changed the thanks to a groan. Next time take your own advice and don't groan or thank in haste :D

Quote:

Also, the law is to be dropped because of the very few incidences, not to legalise sex between blood line adults.
Not sure what you are going on about. If two grown up adults want to sleep with each other by choice and without any use of force then it should not be my business nor your business. Same blood line or not.

Gastro Gnome 15.12.2010 13:16

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WhySoSerious? (Post 1045468)
Not sure what you are going on about. If two grown up adults want to sleep with each other by choice and without any use of force then it should not be my business nor your business. Same blood line or not.

I think UptheHatters acknowledges this.

WhySoSerious? 15.12.2010 13:25

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1045471)
I think UptheHatters acknowledges this.

Grudgingly maybe :) You did not leave him much room to manoeuvre as the holes in his argument were too big. If he is sincere then credit to him but I take everything I read online with a pinch of salt. Did you know that I am world banjo playing champion?

jj muge 15.12.2010 13:27

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1045471)
I think UptheHatters acknowledges this.

yes he did, many times. Sorry if my last post gave the impression I agree with him not recognising this.

I'm not really against the Bundesrat's position, I'm merely trying to sort my thoughts on this with the help of the great arguers here. Is my concern about dependancy relevant? Or is this patronising an adult, who is responsible for his own decisions?

zymogen 15.12.2010 14:05

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jj muge (Post 1045487)
yes he did, many times. Sorry if my last post gave the impression I agree with him not recognising this.

I'm not really against the Bundesrat's position, I'm merely trying to sort my thoughts on this with the help of the great arguers here. Is my concern about dependancy relevant? Or is this patronising an adult, who is responsible for his own decisions?

I think you have a valid point. Imo this thread is just scratching at the surface of the incest issue and downgrading it to 'consensual sex between two adults'.

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 14:11

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zymogen (Post 1045516)
I think you have a valid point. Imo this thread is just scratching at the surface of the incest issue and downgrading it to 'consensual sex between two adults'.

Yes, the diversion to consenting adult sex distracts from the gross majority of incest incidences.

Gastro Gnome 15.12.2010 14:12

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zymogen (Post 1045516)
I think you have a valid point. Imo this thread is just scratching at the surface of the incest issue and downgrading it to 'consensual sex between two adults'.

Has anyone in this thread said that underage sex with a relative should be legal?

No.

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 14:20

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1045519)
Has anyone in this thread said that underage sex with a relative should be legal?

No.

We are gradually reaching consensus on many points. The consenting adult point is acknowledged by most if not all.

I still firmly believe that incest laws should remain to reflect the fact that incest is a greater crime than rape and child abuse. we have burglary laws and we have armed robbery laws to invoke a weak analogy.

I am concerned about dropping laws because of the low number of incidences. Twisted logic perhaps. To me that is the sign or a law working. Also, because incest happens mostly in the home, the number of incidents is probably erring dangerously on the low side.

Gastro Gnome 15.12.2010 14:24

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045526)
We are gradually reaching consensus on many points. The consenting adult point is acknowledged by most if not all.

I still firmly believe that incest laws should remain to reflect the fact that incest is a greater crime than rape and child abuse. we have burglary laws and we have armed robbery laws to invoke a weak analogy.

I am concerned about dropping laws because of the low number of incidences. Twisted logic perhaps. To me that is the sign or a law working. Also, because incest happens mostly in the home, the number of incidents is probably erring dangerously on the low side.

You seem to have gone into reverse. :(

Logic isn't your strong point, is it?

Obviously, if the problem is child abuse, strengthen action against that. The main problem here is probably the reluctance of the state to intervene in private homes. It's an irony that the very parties that support maintaining the incest laws are the ones who are pro-family and against the state.

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 14:30

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1045532)
You seem to have gone into reverse. :(

Logic isn't your strong point, is it?

Obviously, if the problem is child abuse, strengthen action against that. The main problem here is probably the reluctance of the state to intervene in private homes. It's an irony that the very parties that support maintaining the incest laws are the ones who are pro-family and against the state.

How have I reversed ? The problem isn't child abuse. I keep saying this. the problem is incest, a greater crime. It may be the same physically, but that is where the similarity ends. Incest is worse than child abuse.

15.12.2010 14:31

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045517)
Yes, the diversion to consenting adult sex distracts from the gross majority of incest incidences.

That logic is like saying the gross majority of Afghan farms grow opium so farming in Afghanistan should be illegal. No, opium farming should be illegal and it is.

15.12.2010 14:32

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045542)
How have I reversed ? The problem isn't child abuse. I keep saying this. the problem is incest, a greater crime.

You just said incest is OK between two consenting adults, but now it's a greater crime than child abuse??


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