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-   -   Bundesrat wants to remove incest law (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/101465-bundesrat-wants-remove-incest-law.html)

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 14:35

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1045545)
You just said incest is OK between two consenting adults, but now it's a greater crime than child abuse??

It is not a crime , I believe between adults, it is a crime when underage children are involved. That is the same position I have been maintaining. perhaps for clarifies sake we should stop including consenting adults in the reference to incest. I have.

Assassin 15.12.2010 14:35

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045542)
How have I reversed ? The problem isn't child abuse. I keep saying this. the problem is incest, a greater crime. It may be the same physically, but that is where the similarity ends. Incest is worse than child abuse.

Whoa! Just a second. Of course child abuse is a problem, period. Incest may be one form of child abuse, but are you insinuating that it is worse because of the "trusted parent or familiar person" angle or what exactly?

Gastro Gnome 15.12.2010 14:36

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045542)
How have I reversed ? The problem isn't child abuse. I keep saying this. the problem is incest, a greater crime.

And you keep being wrong. You've already said that cases of adult consensual incest should not be criminalised . . . this single category falisifies the claim that 'All incest is harmful'.

Incest = not necessarily harmful
Child abuse = necessarily harmful

Therefore

Incest AND child abuse = necessarily harmful

Simple logic.

How on earth could an adult consensual relationship be a greater crime than child abuse? :confused:

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 14:37

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1045543)
That logic is like saying the gross majority of Afghan farms grow opium so farming in Afghanistan should be illegal. No, opium farming should be illegal and it is.

No. It means that the law should be modified to say Opium farming is illegal.

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 14:46

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1045553)
And you keep being wrong. You've already said that cases of adult consensual incest should not be criminalised . . . this single category falisifies the claim that 'All incest is harmful'.

Incest = not necessarily harmful
Child abuse = necessarily harmful

Therefore

Incest AND child abuse = necessarily harmful

Simple logic.

How on earth could an adult consensual relationship be a greater crime than child abuse? :confused:

...and consenting adults is probably harmful. They are just old enough to understand and acknowledge the risks.

You guys are hung up on, stuck on, spinning around on consenting adults. Move on, the debate is about dropping the law, or amending it, not about the factorially small incidents of consenting adult sex.

Incest with minors is a far greater crime than child abuse. existing child abuse laws are not enough. Modify the existing law, do not drop it.

Take it from there. It's not me that is dragging this thread backwards.


Why do you persistently miss the point ?

Let me clarify, and you can take it from here.

Consenting adults - fine, exclude from the argument and the law.
Incest involving minors - worse than child abuse.
Keep the incest law, modify it.
Child abuse laws - not relevant enough.

15.12.2010 14:51

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045554)
No. It means that the law should be modified to say Opium farming is illegal.

Nope, Opium farming is already illegal. Just like an adult having sex with a child. The fact they're related doesn't make it more of a crime, less legal, nor easier to commit where incest is legal. A crime is a crime.

15.12.2010 14:53

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045548)
It is not a crime , I believe between adults, it is a crime when underage children are involved. That is the same position I have been maintaining. perhaps for clarifies sake we should stop including consenting adults in the reference to incest. I have.

Good but why is a 36 year old father having sex with his 10 year old daughter a worse crime than a 36 year old man having sex with a 10 year old girl? I don't see it. They're both rape/child abuse, both illegal, both punished a prosecuted.

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 14:54

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1045572)
Nope, Opium farming is already illegal. Just like an adult having sex with a child. The fact they're related doesn't make it more of a crime, less legal, nor easier to commit where incest is legal. A crime is a crime.

Aha ! Yes it does. incest is a greater crime than child abuse.

Finally we are getting somewhere.

Discuss.

15.12.2010 14:55

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045565)
Incest involving minors - worse than child abuse.

I think that your view here is ... your view, and totally arbitrary. I don't see how it's worse if people are related. Raping a child is unendingly horrific. I'm not sure if there are degrees based on familial ties. It's a bit like saying if a father kills his own daughter it should be a worse crime than if he kills someone else's child.

15.12.2010 14:55

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045578)
Aha ! Yes it does. incest is a greater crime than child abuse.

No it isn't. Discuss :rolleyes:

jj muge 15.12.2010 14:56

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zymogen (Post 1045516)
I think you have a valid point. Imo this thread is just scratching at the surface of the incest issue and downgrading it to 'consensual sex between two adults'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1045519)
Has anyone in this thread said that underage sex with a relative should be legal?

No.

I don't think this is what SHe said, at least it was not the point I was trying to make. My question is, can sex between a parent and offspring be consensual sex between adults or is this situation abusiv in nature?

That's not saying this law is necessary, but it's saying that adults can be abused too.

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 14:58

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1045581)
No it isn't. Discuss :rolleyes:

I was raped by a stranger when I was 13.

I was raped by my Father when I was 13.

I argue there is a huge difference in both the perpetrator and the damage done to the victim.

Assassin 15.12.2010 15:00

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045578)
Aha ! Yes it does. incest is a greater crime than child abuse.

Finally we are getting somewhere.

Discuss.

Again, why do you consider incest to be the worse crime? (Greater is a poor adjective when comparing bad with bad).

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 15:00

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1045580)
I think that your view here is ... your view, and totally arbitrary. I don't see how it's worse if people are related. Raping a child is unendingly horrific. I'm not sure if there are degrees based on familial ties. It's a bit like saying if a father kills his own daughter it should be a worse crime than if he kills someone else's child.

It is. The courts will view it that way too. It's at the top of the 'lesser of two evils' but I believe one is worse than the other.

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 15:05

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Assassin (Post 1045586)
Again, why do you consider incest to the worse crime? (Greater is a poor adjective when comparing bad with bad).

I agree with the latter. Child abuse can involve a stranger, the harm done is less to a victim than knowing you have been raped by your Father or older brother. Incest destroys families. I would argue that recovery from rape by a stranger is quicker than by a family member. Incest is ongoing rape, horrific ceaseless abuse. Child abuse is of a lesser frequency and is more opportunistic. A child expects to be protected by her Father from a stranger, not to be a victim of the one she trusts. The breach of confidence and trust is far greater. A man that rapes a child is arguably less evil than a man that rapes his child.

Assassin 15.12.2010 15:06

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045584)
I was raped by a stranger when I was 13.

I was raped by my Father when I was 13.

I argue there is a huge difference in both the perpetrator and the damage done to the victim.

You're using your moral standpoint to judge the matter. There's nothing wrong with that and I applaud it, but that's not what any penal system or code is for. Emotionally of course, a parent who abuses their own child is worse than the lowest scumbag possible, but one can hardly expect the law to penalize it differently than if that same person attacked another non-related child. You're using your human heart to try and define a fair legal penalty, that's not always possible and this instance, I'd say impossible.

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 15:10

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Assassin (Post 1045591)
You're using your moral standpoint to judge the matter. There's nothing wrong with that and I applaud it, but that's not what any penal system or code is for. Emotionally of course, a parent who abuses their own child is worse than the lowest scumbag possible, but one can hardly expect the law to penalize it differently than if that same person attacked another non-related child. You're using your human heart to try and define a fair legal penalty, that's not always possible and this instance, I'd say impossible.

They do. Laws and punishment reflect public opinion , which is subjective and emotional. Extent of damage to the victim is taken into account. Incest has more indirect victims too. I argue that the courts would see it differently.

Does anyone here think that raping your daughter is the same as raping a stranger ?

Assassin 15.12.2010 15:34

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045594)
They do. Laws and punishment reflect public opinion , which is subjective and emotional. Extent of damage to the victim is taken into account. Incest has more indirect victims too. I argue that the courts would see it differently.

Does anyone here think that raping your daughter is the same as raping a stranger ?

It's not the same emotional crime granted, but it's splitting hairs trying to find a method of sentencing it fairly. Imagine the Austrian court in the Josef Fritzl case, there was wasn't much else to do except life imprisonment. Short of throwing in a bit of sadistic torture and ethnic cleansing, Fritzl couldn't have committed much worse crimes if he was going for the world record of nastiness.

Now you're the judge and you have a the case of a 15 year old who has been abused by her father just after you've had to sentence a hospital worker for sexually abusing a (non-related) infant - how are you going to make the call? I for one wouldn't know how to.

Treverus 15.12.2010 15:39

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Guys, keep the spirit up: We are at nearly 400 posts on a topic that just affects on average 4 cases a year in Switzerland...

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 15:39

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Assassin (Post 1045614)
It's not the same emotional crime granted, but it's splitting hairs trying to find a method of sentencing it fairly. Imagine the Austrian court in the Josef Fritzl case, there was wasn't much else to do except life imprisonment. Short of throwing in a bit of sadistic torture and ethnic cleansing, Fritzl couldn't have committed much worse crimes if he was going for the world record of nastiness.

Now you're the judge and you have a the case of a 15 year old who has been abused by her father just after you've had to sentence a hospital worker for sexually abusing a (non-related) infant - how are you going to make the call? I for one wouldn't know how to.


Life without parole, Life meaning 15 , out after 7... Life sentences can mean many things. Rehabilitation is key here, maybe treatments are different in different institutions for child abusers and those involved in child incest.

Am open to suggestions... Thanks for keeping the thread going forward too.


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