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-   -   Bundesrat wants to remove incest law (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/101465-bundesrat-wants-remove-incest-law.html)

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 14:40

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1045617)
Guys, keep the spirit up: We are at nearly 400 posts on a topic that just affects on average 4 cases a year in Switzerland...

4 reported cases...

Gastro Gnome 15.12.2010 14:42

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jj muge (Post 1045583)
My question is, can sex between a parent and offspring be consensual sex between adults or is this situation abusiv in nature?

That's not saying this law is necessary, but it's saying that adults can be abused too.

I agree that this is an interesting question.

The idea of freewill and the ability to give consent is at the heart of the law though. If there wasn't consent, in an adult situation, for example if the act took place under duress, then that would be covered by rape law wouldn't it?

jj muge 15.12.2010 14:49

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1045623)
I agree that this is an interesting question.

The idea of freewill and the ability to give consent is at the heart of the law though. If there wasn't consent, in an adult situation, for example if the act took place under duress, then that would be covered by rape law wouldn't it?

Yes I'd think so too. It was just the reduction of these relationships to consenting sex that irked me.

eh that doesn't really look like what I want to say, but you know what I mean?;)

Gastro Gnome 15.12.2010 14:53

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jj muge (Post 1045628)
Yes I'd think so too. It was just the reduction of these relationships to consenting sex that irked me.

I don't think anyone was attempting a reduction. They were just pointing out where an injustice could result from application of the current law - and that should always be a motivation for reform.

panda 15.12.2010 16:40

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
given that this thread has moved on from whether or not there should be a law or reform of an existing law, can I ask the people who have said "all good when adults consent" the following questions.......

1.) Should they be allowed to bear children, if not how do you enforce this?
2.) Should they be allowed to marry, if not why not?
3.) Would you be happy/comfortable to have people in such a relationship in your close circle of friends?

Could make for an interesting dinner party when someone asks "where did you meet your partner" and the answer is "I have known him my whole life, he is my dad"

If we are saying they should be afforded the same rights as homosexuals then this shouldn't this include marriage and living "in the open" as it were

Gastro Gnome 15.12.2010 16:44

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by panda (Post 1045771)
given that this thread has moved on from whether or not there should be a law or reform of an existing law, can I ask the people who have said "all good when adults consent" the following questions.......

1.) Should they be allowed to bear children, if not how do you enforce this?
2.) Should they be allowed to marry, if not why not?
3.) Would you be happy/comfortable to have people in such a relationship in your close circle of friends?

Could make for an interesting dinner party when someone asks "where did you meet your partner" and the answer is "I have known him my whole life, he is my dad"

If we are saying they should be afforded the same rights as homosexuals then this shouldn't this include marriage and living "in the open" as it were

1) I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
2) Yes, at least insofar as marriage is a state-sanctioned contract
3) Yes. Live and let live.

I'm not sure at all what you mean by your last sentence. Everyone should be able to live in the open.

panda 15.12.2010 16:47

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1045775)
1) I'm not sure at all what you mean by your last sentence. Everyone should be able to live in the open.

It is really just to explain why I ask if everyone would be comfortable being friends with such a couple - I think we can agree that they can't live in the open (with regards to their relationship) as things stand. I certainly don't know any such couples that are.

Guest 15.12.2010 16:48

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
I dunno, incest must be good. Why else would royalty and aristocracy have been practicing it for millenia, whilst ensuring it be banned for the masses? It's probably nearly as much fun as hunting swans.

Assassin 15.12.2010 16:53

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by panda (Post 1045771)
1.) Should they be allowed to bear children, if not how do you enforce this?
2.) Should they be allowed to marry, if not why not?
3.) Would you be happy/comfortable to have people in such a relationship in your close circle of friends?

1) No, but a law won't stop it happening. You cannot enforce it.
2) No, because I believe our society doesn't want same family marriages. I find it unnatural.
3) No, it would be awkward for me.

MathNut 15.12.2010 17:01

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by panda (Post 1045771)
given that this thread has moved on from whether or not there should be a law or reform of an existing law, can I ask the people who have said "all good when adults consent" the following questions.......

1.) Should they be allowed to bear children, if not how do you enforce this?
2.) Should they be allowed to marry, if not why not?
3.) Would you be happy/comfortable to have people in such a relationship in your close circle of friends?

Could make for an interesting dinner party when someone asks "where did you meet your partner" and the answer is "I have known him my whole life, he is my dad"

If we are saying they should be afforded the same rights as homosexuals then this shouldn't this include marriage and living "in the open" as it were

1.) Yes. Of course they should be responsible about it, take stock of the risks and consider the decision carefully from all sides - but then who shouldn't? We don't forbid procreation or even require pre-conception screening for any other demographic known to face increased genetic risk (e.g. the Amish, Ashkenazi Jews) so why for these folks? As economisto says we allow all sorts of risky behavior during pregnancy, on the theory that personal freedom trumps fetal health, so I can't see that a risky decision to conceive in the first place is any different.
2.) Yes.
3.) To be honest I'd probably be a bit icked out - if I knew - but then tongue piercings ick me out too and I have friends who have those and we're still friends. Anyway I don't think my personal ick factor is a good basis for law, do you?

Basically I'm of the opinion that government shouldn't regulate people's sex lives - including their reproductive decisions - unless it has a darn good reason to be doing so. All the proposed reasons (it's icky! it's unnatural! think of the children! incestuous pedophile bank robbers would only be breaking two laws instead of three!) fall pretty far short to me.

panda 15.12.2010 17:09

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MathNut (Post 1045787)
1.) Anyway I don't think my personal ick factor is a good basis for law, do you?

Basically I'm of the opinion that government shouldn't regulate people's sex lives - including their reproductive decisions - unless it has a darn good reason to be doing so. All the proposed reasons (it's icky! it's unnatural! think of the children! incestuous pedophile bank robbers would only be breaking two laws instead of three!) fall pretty far short to me.

Please note that I gave an intro stating that these questions are being posed only now that we have moved on from the legal question, they are merely questions that have occurred to me whilst reading this thread, there is 0 finger pointing or debating what people should do - but I appreciate the honest answers

Gastro Gnome 15.12.2010 17:10

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Good article here on the adult-consensual side of it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/ma...er?INTCMP=SRCH

MathNut 15.12.2010 17:11

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by panda (Post 1045793)
Please note that I gave an intro stating that these questions are being posed only now that we have moved on from the legal question, they are merely questions that have occurred to me whilst reading this thread, there is 0 finger pointing or debating what people should do - but I appreciate the honest answers

Well, 2 of your 3 questions are "should they be allowed" - I thought you meant legally allowed. What did you mean?

panda 15.12.2010 17:14

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MathNut (Post 1045797)
Well, 2 of your 3 questions are "should they be allowed" - I thought you meant legally allowed. What did you mean?

I meant in the opinion of the people who said so long as they are adults and consent it is all well and good - please understand I am just asking for opinions as I am interested, nothing else, I hope I was clear in the post where I posed the questions.

Gastro Gnome 15.12.2010 17:16

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by panda (Post 1045801)
I meant in the opinion of the people who said so long as they are adults and consent it is all well and good - please understand I am just asking for opinions as I am interested, nothing else, I hope I was clear in the post where I posed the questions.

But what exactly do you mean by 'allowed'? Do you mean 'legal'?

panda 15.12.2010 17:23

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1045802)
But what exactly do you mean by 'allowed'? Do you mean 'legal'?


I wanted to ask outside of the legal question, that has been done and moved on from in this thread, I just want to ask if, in the opinion of the people who expressed approval of these relationships and those who compared it to homosexuality would ***in their own opinion*** allow these rights to such a couple, and if they would feel comfortable socially with them, and to re iterate, this is just because I am interested in the things that people here have said and wonder how far the tolerance/acceptance/embracing of such things would, in theory extend - really no finger pointing and no need to defend any opinion, we are all allowed ours.

Got to go soon - but hope to see more answers tomorrow.

Gastro Gnome 15.12.2010 17:26

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by panda (Post 1045806)
I wanted to ask outside of the legal question, that has been done and moved on from in this thread, I just want to ask if, in the opinion of the people who expressed approval of these relationships and those who compared it to homosexuality would ***in their own opinion*** allow these rights to such a couple, and if they would feel comfortable socially with them, and to re iterate, this is just because I am interested in the things that people here have said and wonder how far the tolerance/acceptance/embracing of such things would, in theory extend - really no finger pointing and no need to defend any opinion, we are all allowed ours.

Got to go soon - but hope to see more answers tomorrow.

Yes . . . it's fine to ask questions.

I think we were just wondering how you could go beyond the legal question but then ask whether they should be allowed to get married . . . that is a legal question isn't it?

panda 15.12.2010 17:32

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1045811)
Yes . . . it's fine to ask questions.

I think we were just wondering how you could go beyond the legal question but then ask whether they should be allowed to get married . . . that is a legal question isn't it?

only if asking your opinion makes it such?

15.12.2010 18:11

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045584)
I was raped by a stranger when I was 13.

I was raped by my Father when I was 13.

I argue there is a huge difference in both the perpetrator and the damage done to the victim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1045587)
It is. The courts will view it that way too. It's at the top of the 'lesser of two evils' but I believe one is worse than the other.

I cannot find any evidence that the courts see familial rape as more serious than non familial rape.

Here are the sentencing guidelines.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/s...anual/s1_rape/


It does speak to abuse of trust, as one of a few factor but not specifically an aggravating factor.

However in this American study, it's found that while most rapes occur through acquaintances, less than one-seventh of these are within the family, so abuse of trust has little to do with incestuous sex/rape as per your example.

Upthehatters2008 15.12.2010 18:37

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1045854)
...so abuse of trust has little to do with incestuous sex/rape as per your example.

I think you need to rethink that statement...

Also, as for sentencing guidelines, incest would be an additional charge added to the rape charge or vice versa. The effective sentence is more severe, either theoretically if served concurrently or physically if served consecutively. Conviction of two offences has to been as worse than one.

Then for over 16 years but younger than 18, we add the new offence of breach of trust etc. Not directly applicable to my example but relevant. That is if we are sticking with your UK examples.


Also, sticking to wiki...

Research indicates that 46% of children who are raped are victims of family members (Langan and Harlow, 1994). The majority of American rape victims (61%) are raped before the age of 18; furthermore, 29% of all forcible rapes occurred when the victim was less than 11 years old. 11% of rape victims are raped by their fathers or step-fathers, and another 16% are raped by other relatives. [33]


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