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-   -   Bundesrat wants to remove incest law (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/101465-bundesrat-wants-remove-incest-law.html)

m_dalloway 16.12.2010 23:04

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1046932)
Sickos? How terribly judgemental. What business is it of yours what consenting adults get up to in their own bedrooms?

I still would like to see such case where a parent/child, brother/sister have a consensual sexual relationship.

native 16.12.2010 23:30

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by m_dalloway (Post 1047017)
I still would like to see such case where a parent/child, brother/sister have a consensual sexual relationship.

Couple stand by forbidden love

Quite a moving article I think.

native 16.12.2010 23:36

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by m_dalloway (Post 1047017)
I still would like to see such case where a parent/child, brother/sister have a consensual sexual relationship.

And I'm pretty sure the recent father/daughter case has already been mentioned somewhere:

It's ok for homosexuals to do whatever they want in their own home. How is this so different?

native 16.12.2010 23:39

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1046987)
so as long as it does not concern me, means that it is ok?....ok...:confused:
Sorry, I thought it was just me who thought it was wrong that a father and daughter had sexual intercourse...sorry once again since it is not my business...well why not apply this to everything...or? No, wait maybe someone would abuse this things...no..how can that be?

none of my business...case closed...:eek::rolleyes:

Two consenting adults, doing in their own home whatever they please, not hurting any third party: Non of your business indeed.

Gastro Gnome 16.12.2010 23:46

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by m_dalloway (Post 1047017)
I still would like to see such case where a parent/child, brother/sister have a consensual sexual relationship.

There are many cases of brother and sisters who were separated at birth and then reunited later in life having an attraction for one another. I'm not saying this is a good thing and it does cause troubled thoughts for many involved. There's certainly no reason to criminalise it though.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/ma...er?INTCMP=SRCH

If there were absolutely no consensual incestuous relationships then the law could still be scrapped as rape laws and child abuse laws would already be sufficient.

Gastro Gnome 16.12.2010 23:49

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1046987)
so as long as it does not concern me, means that it is ok?....ok...:confused:
Sorry, I thought it was just me who thought it was wrong that a father and daughter had sexual intercourse...sorry once again since it is not my business...well why not apply this to everything...or? No, wait maybe someone would abuse this things...no..how can that be?

none of my business...case closed...:eek::rolleyes:

Of course it's society's business if child abuse is taking place. That's why we have child abuse laws.

Why would you be concerned about consenting adults though?

Why don't you try reading through the thread up to this point. Most of the arguments have already been stated and restated several times.

OSueco 17.12.2010 08:32

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1047074)
Of course it's society's business if child abuse is taking place. That's why we have child abuse laws.

Why would you be concerned about consenting adults though?

Why don't you try reading through the thread up to this point. Most of the arguments have already been stated and restated several times.

Sigh, for me I know to less to put statistic about the genetic defect etc. I just gave my opinion about the moral issue, that it could be abused and why does it happens. So I ask again, should it be allowed for a father to have sex with his daughter and conceive a child? Would that be fair to the child?

But the most important aspect, how DID this relationship occur? See what I am getting at...:eek:

OSueco 17.12.2010 08:33

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by native (Post 1047063)
Two consenting adults, doing in their own home whatever they please, not hurting any third party: Non of your business indeed.

Father violating his daughter year after year, but after she turns 18 then it's ok all of a sudden..bravo!

OSueco 17.12.2010 08:38

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by native (Post 1047059)
And I'm pretty sure the recent father/daughter case has already been mentioned somewhere:

It's ok for homosexuals to do whatever they want in their own home. How is this so different?

Gay couples were not brought up together or they did not breastfeed each other...:rolleyes:

Gay couples met under different circumstances, whereas a incest couple are together for other reasons, which itself should be questioned, once again, how DID that relationship start. For me it's something in a family that went horrible wrong....

Gastro Gnome 17.12.2010 09:49

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1047142)
Sigh, for me I know to less to put statistic about the genetic defect etc. I just gave my opinion about the moral issue, that it could be abused and why does it happens. So I ask again, should it be allowed for a father to have sex with his daughter and conceive a child? Would that be fair to the child?

But the most important aspect, how DID this relationship occur? See what I am getting at...:eek:

We're not talking about this situation.

We're talking about how the current law criminalises some situations where it isn't the business of the state or society to intervene. An example of this is where a brother and sister are separated at birth and then meet later in life. There are many documented cases of this happening. I'm in no way saying we should encourage these relationships, but why should this be criminal activity?

In another post you gave the example of father-daughter incest that 'suddenly becomes OK' after 18. In your example the incest had started pre-18, so that covered by child abuse or rape laws.

As for having children, since we now have contraception and also reasonably safe termination practises, this question is now irrelevant to the discussion. As for whether the state should legislate over whether close relatives can't have children, I would say probably yes. In cases in other countries, judges have allowed incestuous relationships to continue with the proviso there are no children.

Gastro Gnome 17.12.2010 09:51

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1047144)
Father violating his daughter year after year, but after she turns 18 then it's ok all of a sudden..bravo!

No. The father should obviously be prosecuted for anything that happened before she was eighteen.

Gastro Gnome 17.12.2010 09:52

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1047146)
Gay couples were not brought up together or they did not breastfeed each other...:rolleyes:

Gay couples met under different circumstances, whereas a incest couple are together for other reasons, which itself should be questioned, once again, how DID that relationship start. For me it's something in a family that went horrible wrong....

The comparison isn't about how relationships start. It's about the right of the state to legislate consenting adults sexual behaviour.

panda 17.12.2010 16:45

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1047146)
once again, how DID that relationship start. For me it's something in a family that went horrible wrong....

OSueco, do you mean that even if the person has reached the age of consent that there may have been grooming leading up to that time? That had occurred to me

Wollishofener 17.12.2010 23:49

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1047142)
Sigh, for me I know to less to put statistic about the genetic defect etc. I just gave my opinion about the moral issue, that it could be abused and why does it happens. So I ask again, should it be allowed for a father to have sex with his daughter and conceive a child? Would that be fair to the child?

But the most important aspect, how DID this relationship occur? See what I am getting at...:eek:

If a father has sex with his daughter and she agrees, nothing will become known and proven to the outside. If the daughter however does not agree and then goes to the police, the matter will not be incest but sexual abuse or rape, and there are many laws covering this.

"how did this relationship occur ? " Not due to the existence or non-existence of one law or the other !


************************************************** ********

Quote:

Originally Posted by OSueco (Post 1047144)
Father violating his daughter year after year, but after she turns 18 then it's ok all of a sudden..bravo!

If it happens with her approval, you cannot do much as it will not be known, or at least not be proven. BUT if it happens against her will, it is rape, and there are enough laws about this.

...........................

Luc P 18.12.2010 01:43

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1048217)
... if it happens against her will, it is rape, and there are enough laws about this.

Sadly enough, it's not always that simple... sometimes (no, I do not have statistics and don't want to research for them), "against Her will" is not enough in order to bring the $#$&%$&&%$ in front of the law... and that's the crass truth. :msnsad::msnsad::msnsad: ... be it threats, culture and social environment pressure, incestuous children lives used as a bargaining chip, etc. (I'm sick just writing this). True, I realize that we're talking about CH here... still... remember the story out of the "Eastern Empire"?!
In this case (rape), I go by the good ol' sayin': "Guns don't kill people... I do!".

Wollishofener 18.12.2010 02:22

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luc P (Post 1048245)
Sadly enough, it's not always that simple... sometimes (no, I do not have statistics and don't want to research for them), "against Her will" is not enough in order to bring the $#$&%$&&%$ in front of the law... and that's the crass truth. :msnsad::msnsad::msnsad: ... be it threats, culture and social environment pressure, incestuous children lives used as a bargaining chip, etc. (I'm sick just writing this). True, I realize that we're talking about CH here... still... remember the story out of the "Eastern Empire"?!
In this case (rape), I go by the good ol' sayin': "Guns don't kill people... I do!".

All correct to some extent, but the topic is a law which is completely ineffective, as the "misdeed" in question in practice cannot be proven.

And in case of lack of proof, the culprit will get away with his deed.

In short, the law discussed here has not helped the judiciary in any way really

Faltrad 18.12.2010 09:37

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
In the case of parent/child sexual relationship, the question of authority and influensability will be relevant. But keep the gays out of it, that's sexual identity like heterosexuality. If you make a difference between hetero- and homosexual incest, then explain your point, otherwise, leave the gays in peace.

09.01.2011 22:42

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Recent interview with an Iranian Swiss scientist, genetics Professor Homayoun Bagheri.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=29195204

I suppose that for the SVP it might prove a possible solution to retaining the Swiss racial purity. :rolleyes:

Wollishofener 09.01.2011 22:50

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hoppy (Post 1063709)
Recent interview with an Iranian Swiss scientist, genetics Professor Homayoun Bagheri.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=29195204

I suppose that for the SVP it might prove a possible solution to retaining the Swiss racial purity. :rolleyes:

Professor Bagheri did NOT say anything about "racial purity", really nothing at all. So that your statement is far beside the point ! :o

09.01.2011 23:05

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1063714)
Professor Bagheri did NOT say anything about "racial purity", really nothing at all. So that your statement is far beside the point ! :o

Of course not- actually he is against a change in the law because of power imbalances within the relationships.
If he had said this then I would have enclosed it in quotation marks. The commentary is mine, thus not enclosed in a quotation box.

Some races do inbreed when they feel threatened by other cultures. Although, as this recent study in remote Swiss villages show inbreeding does not produce fewer offspring :


Quote:

Remote villages show effects of inbreeding For the first time in a western society, Swiss researchers have shown that women born to parents related to each other tend to have fewer children themselves. The findings by a team led by evolutionary biologist Erik Postma from Zurich University revealed that, contrary to popular belief, parents who are closely related to each other do not have fewer children. Rather, the effects of inbreeding can be seen one generation later, when their children have children
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/science_...13180&rss=true

These can retrace their racial purity back to the 1600's something I am sure the SVP would admire.


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