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-   -   Bundesrat wants to remove incest law (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/101465-bundesrat-wants-remove-incest-law.html)

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 18:52

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

So was buggery, until the laws against it were abolished.
Human laws are irrelevant here, The laws of nature, and genetics take precedent. Incestuous people are like GM scientists, in it for greed and lust and to he'll with the consequences. It has been wrong since the beginning, outcast since the beginning and no amount of liberal thinking will produce a strong enough case that will change how nature makes us think about these acts. Pro-incest arguments reveal just a little too much about the prescribed.

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 18:52

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

So was buggery, until the laws against it were abolished.
Seems to be a pet subject of yours!! However, I believe that incest laws were probably introduced to avoid the probability of defective offspring being porduced as a result of incestuous coupling.

MathNut 11.12.2010 18:53

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041888)
Incest by definition is a lack of decency. An unnatural act. Consenting adults know the reasons why they should avoid incest. This point is moot, to defend incest is just the act of a troll, or an ignoramus, or a squint eyed banjo playing hillbilly.

Huh? Last time I heard this line of argument trotted out, it was about fellatio, and all the squint-eyed banjo players were on your side of the question (i.e. opposed to such an obviously unnatural act.) What's different?

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 18:54

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041902)
Seems to be a pet subject of yours!! However, I believe that incest laws were probably introduced to avoid the probability of defective offspring being porduced as a result of incestuous coupling.

Yes . . . thousands of years before we had contraception.

If a brother and sister who wanted to marry agreed to be sterilized, how could you object to that if your initial objection was related to procreation?

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 18:54

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1041896)
I don't think there's anything wrong with two consenting adults deciding how to live their own lives. There is no harm to another here to be considered.

The laws against incest are a religious hangover. In France they got rid of their incest laws over 200 years ago. You really have to be VERY conservative to oppose this modernisation.

You accuse me of being a troll, or ignorant, or in some way retarded . . . and yet this modernisation has been proposed by mainstream politicians across Europe. Now please put your bigotry back in its box.

So you want this law repealed for what purpose ? Nature wins this argument, not a ballot box. Your arguments just fall to the ground. To you the Earth is flat...

Guest 11.12.2010 18:55

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041902)
Seems to be a pet subject of yours!!

Merely comparing like with like. :)


Quote:

However, I believe that incest laws were probably introduced to avoid the probability of defective offspring being porduced as a result of incestuous coupling.
Indeed. In the days before contraception. Now that contraception is available, is there a single good reason to argue against the right of adults to sleep with other consenting adults?

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 18:56

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MathNut (Post 1041903)
Huh? Last time I heard this line of argument trotted out, it was about fellatio, and all the squint-eyed banjo players were on your side of the question (i.e. opposed to such an obviously unnatural act.) What's different?

You speak of man made laws and morality...Observe what nature has to say on the topic.

Guest 11.12.2010 18:57

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041910)
You speak of man made laws and morality...Observe what nature has to say on the topic.

Animals shag their siblings and offspring all the time.

What's your point?

(The last time I heard the "unnatural" argument trotted out, it was being used by nutty religious extremists to talk about oral and anal sex :D)

MathNut 11.12.2010 18:58

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041902)
Seems to be a pet subject of yours!! However, I believe that incest laws were probably introduced to avoid the probability of defective offspring being porduced as a result of incestuous coupling.

Sure they were - and like fornication laws, they were a brilliant idea at the time. But also like fornication laws, they've pretty much outlived their social utility. It is no longer a given that sexual partnership will result in 6-10 children (or death in childbed, whichever comes first) and so the legitimate need to regulate sexual behavior for the greater good is much less.

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:00

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1041905)
Yes . . . thousands of years before we had contraception.

If a brother and sister who wanted to marry agreed to be sterilized, how could you object to that if your initial objection was related to procreation?

I have not said that I objected; sterilised brothers and sisters can do whatever they like, assuming that the laws were repealed. However, I still maintain that it is morally ill-conceived, notwithstanding all DB's arguments relating to buggery, falatio, etc etc.

MathNut 11.12.2010 19:02

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Animals shag their siblings and offspring all the time.
What he said. ^^ Ever spent any time on a farm? Bulls don't care if the cow in heat in the next pasture is related to them or not; neither do stallions, rams, roosters, ganders... (Nor does the female of the species for that matter - lest you think I'm trying to pin it all on the menfolk.)

Guest 11.12.2010 19:02

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041916)
I still maintain that it is morally ill-conceived

On what grounds?

And what right has government to dictate sexual morals where consenting adults are involved?

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:02

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MathNut (Post 1041914)
Sure they were - and like fornication laws, they were a brilliant idea at the time. But also like fornication laws, they've pretty much outlived their social utility. It is no longer a given that sexual partnership will result in 6-10 children (or death in childbed, whichever comes first) and so the legitimate need to regulate sexual behavior for the greater good is much less.

So, does that imply that you are pro incestuouos relationships?

Guest 11.12.2010 19:03

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041919)
So, does that imply that you are pro incestuouos relationships?

:confused:

That's a somewhat bizarre question, isn't it?

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 19:03

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041906)
So you want this law repealed for what purpose ? Nature wins this argument, not a ballot box. Your arguments just fall to the ground. To you the Earth is flat...

The purpose of repealing the law is so that consenting adults aren't prosecuted for something which does absolutely no harm to anyone else.

By the way, if you're main aim here is to prevent the production of 'defective' offspring, are there other groups you'd like to target, perhaps with sterilization or gene therapy? The urge to do away with those with genetic illnesses would seem more at home in the 1930s when eugenics was popular.

Your style of discussion this evening doesn't seem particularly level.

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:04

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

:confused:

That's a somewhat bizarre question, isn't it?
Not at all, given the quote that I was referring to ...

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 19:04

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Animals shag their siblings and offspring all the time.

What's your point?

(The last time I heard the "unnatural" argument trotted out, it was being used by nutty religious extremists to talk about oral and anal sex :D)
...unnatural. Acted against by nature in humans. Nature hardwires humans against the act. If you aren't against it, check your wiring.

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 19:05

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041916)
I have not said that I objected; sterilised brothers and sisters can do whatever they like, assuming that the laws were repealed. However, I still maintain that it is morally ill-conceived, notwithstanding all DB's arguments relating to buggery, falatio, etc etc.

Morally ill-conceived on what basis? Where are you getting your morality from and why should others be subject to it?

Guest 11.12.2010 19:05

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041922)
Not at all, given the quote that I was referring to ...

If I defend the right of Muslims to eat halal meat, does that mean that I am pro-halal meat?

I don't think so... :rolleyes:

Faltrad 11.12.2010 19:06

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041902)
Seems to be a pet subject of yours!! However, I believe that incest laws were probably introduced to avoid the probability of defective offspring being porduced as a result of incestuous coupling.

Incest laws are a direct expression in juridical area of the cultural taboo linked to incest. Religion is another expression of such culture and reinforce as a moral authority such a taboo. Clear text: it's in the old testament.
The true question in Europe was the limit in the cousin line. There were areas where only cousin of second degree and above could mary with each other, other areas allowed also first degree (In Lapland, norwegian Finnmark until after the war. Special dispensation possible until recently).

Guest 11.12.2010 19:07

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041923)
Nature hardwires humans against the act.

If that was the case, then it wouldn't exist, would it? :rolleyes:

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:08

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

On what grounds?

And what right has government to dictate sexual morals where consenting adults are involved?
Nature itself implemented a means whereby siblings are not sexually attracted to each other, for good reason I think. It is called the Westermarck effect, but it unfortunately diminishes in power after the age of about six.


Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 19:08

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041923)
...unnatural. Acted against by nature in humans. Nature hardwires humans against the act. If you aren't against it, check your wiring.

And are you SO certain of what's 'natural' and what isn't?

I suppose that contact lenses, antibiotics, contraception, fertility treatment and all kinds of other medical interventions are problematic for you too.

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 19:09

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1041921)
The purpose of repealing the law is so that consenting adults aren't prosecuted for something which does absolutely no harm to anyone else.

By the way, if you're main aim here is to prevent the production of 'defective' offspring, are there other groups you'd like to target, perhaps with sterilization or gene therapy? The urge to do away with those with genetic illnesses would seem more at home in the 1930s when eugenics was popular.

Your style of discussion this evening doesn't seem particularly level.

Not level ,from the weird angle you are coming in at. Dragging the thread off into eugenics and gene therapy is moving too far away from the subject. You have no case to argue, Nature has made it's purpose clear, and designed us to avoid incest. There is nothing to be gained from incest, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 19:10

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1041932)
And are you SO certain of what's 'natural' and what isn't?

I suppose that contact lenses, antibiotics, contraception, fertility treatment and all kinds of other medical interventions are problematic for you too.

Not at all...

Guest 11.12.2010 19:10

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041931)
Nature itself implemented a means whereby siblings are not sexually attracted to each other, for good reason I think.

Well, if that's the case, then there's no need for a law, is there? :)

Sada 11.12.2010 19:10

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

On what grounds?

And what right has government to dictate sexual morals where consenting adults are involved?
Do you mean I can have sex with another adult on the bus in broad daylight and not get into trouble with the law?

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:11

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1041925)
Morally ill-conceived on what basis? Where are you getting your morality from and why should others be subject to it?

Why not? I am entitled to my own opinion and this is a discussion forum.

11.12.2010 19:11

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimster (Post 1041463)
How about the children? They or society are the ones that will have to deal with their disabilities and deformities that may result from this and even if all is okay genetically, there is still the stigma associated with this.

Aha! This is exactly the same field of play as the pro-right-to-abortion argument, and one that I was brought round to by certain forumers here. It isn't illegal for a pregnant mother to pound vodka, because law makers are understandable reticent about making laws that affect what we're allowed to do with our own bodies, irrespective of harming an unborn child. This is the same with incest - if a mother is allowed to harm her foetus with smoking and drinking then the same must logically be true of engaging in incest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lost_inbroad (Post 1041676)
No, Odile said "I don't understand incest, just like I don't understand being gay but I try to be tolerant...". That means that to him/her homosexuality and incest is on the same level which isn't at all since one cannot chose to be homosexual but one can surely chose to be involved in incest (at least in Western culture one can chose).

Incest is on the same level as homosexuality. As well as hetrosexuality. They're just sexual preferences. I wouldn't say any can be helped (though actually engaging in intercourse can be resisted by all three groups). Incest creates disabled children, homosexual sex creates no children and hetrosexual sex creates too many children. Again, I don't see the basic ethical distinction.

What they share in the realm of sexual preferences is that they exclusively involve consenting adults, unlike paedophilia and bestiality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by altehase (Post 1041727)
That's why there are laws against incest. To declare that these things are unimportant in the face of the important issues facing the Swiss government is crass. Wake the f**k up!

So what you're saying is, there are laws against incest because there are laws against incest?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041901)
Human laws are irrelevant here, The laws of nature, and genetics take precedent. Incestuous people are like GM scientists, in it for greed and lust and to he'll with the consequences. It has been wrong since the beginning, outcast since the beginning and no amount of liberal thinking will produce a strong enough case that will change how nature makes us think about these acts. Pro-incest arguments reveal just a little too much about the prescribed.

There are no laws of genetics. There are views. You, as I, am unable to predict the future logical progression of one decision or another on genetics. Incest causes mutation, but mutation is the only reason we don't still live in the sea. And there are other issues to consider beyond genetics - if there weren't we just let the top 1% breed. And then some of the people on this thread would be sh!t outta luck.

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 19:12

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

If that was the case, then it wouldn't exist, would it? :rolleyes:
But it does, as with any other aberration... It fails to be part of natural selection , fails to offer anything to the species and will always be a freak act.

Guest 11.12.2010 19:12

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041933)
There is nothing to be gained from incest, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

Now... where have I heard this argument before...?

Oh yes...

There is nothing to be gained from felatio, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

There is nothing to be gained from anal sex, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

There is nothing to be gained from cunnilingus, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

There is nothing to be gained from homosexuality, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

Describing sexual acts between consenting adults as "selfish, shallow acts of abuse" is a slippery road to go down. :msnshock:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041941)
But it does, as with any other aberration... It fails to be part of natural selection , fails to offer anything to the species and will always be a freak act.

So is sex on the pill, amongst other things. Are you quite so hysterical in your condemnation of that?

MathNut 11.12.2010 19:13

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041919)
So, does that imply that you are pro incestuouos relationships?

DB ain't my brother if that's what you wanted to know. :D

I am pro- government keeping its nose to itself, since you asked. To convince me we should have laws about bedroom activity - any bedroom activity - between consenting adults, you need to demonstrate an overwhelming interest in regulating the particular behavior for the good of society. Otherwise you are just arguing that your own definitions of "natural behavior" and "common decency" should have the force of law.

In this day and age (thanks to contraception, pre-natal screening, etc.) it is really hard to make the social argument stick - so yes, I think laws should be relaxed accordingly - even laws about behavior which I have absolutely no personal interest in indulging. My personal interest or lack of it is utterly beside the point.

11.12.2010 19:14

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041939)
Why not? I am entitled to my own opinion and this is a discussion forum.

zzzz GG questioned your opinion and since this is a discussion forum please discuss or visit a monologue forum instead (twitter?)

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 19:14

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041933)
Not level ,from the weird angle you are coming in at. Dragging the thread off into eugenics and gene therapy is moving too far away from the subject. You have no case to argue, Nature has made it's purpose clear, and designed us to avoid incest. There is nothing to be gained from incest, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

All you keep doing is saying, "it's not natural", without any further justification for why that would be important, without any further explanation of what you consider 'natural', nor any real understanding of why contraception would make this line-of-reasoning redundant anyway.

The purpose of talking about eugenics to show the absurdity of one of your reasons . . . It also shows the dubious political angle.

jj muge 11.12.2010 19:15

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Now... where have I heard this argument before...?

Oh yes...

There is nothing to be gained from felatio, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

There is nothing to be gained from anal sex, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

There is nothing to be gained from cunnilingus, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

There is nothing to be gained from homosexuality, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

Describing sexual acts between consenting adults as "selfish, shallow acts of abuse" is a slippery road to go down. :msnshock:
So is sex on the pill, amongst other things. Are you quite so hysterical in your condemnation of that?
What is meant with abuse? An abuse of what?

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:17

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1041944)
zzzz GG questioned your opinion and since this is a discussion forum please discuss or visit a monologue forum instead (twitter?)

Go back to bed ... with whomsoever you wish.

Guest 11.12.2010 19:17

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jj muge (Post 1041946)
What is meant with abuse? An abuse of what?

Ask Upthehatters. He was the one who said it. :)

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 19:18

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041939)
Why not? I am entitled to my own opinion and this is a discussion forum.

If you want other people to follow your moral rules, shouldn't we know what the justification for them is.

It's very unsatisfying in an argument to suddenly reach the point where someone says, "Well I think it's immoral". It's kind of a dead end for the discussion, but really it shouldn't be. Why should anyone be able to put forward unjustified opinions, especially in a discussion about what the law should be.

11.12.2010 19:18

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jj muge (Post 1041946)
What is meant with abuse? An abuse of what?

Exactly. No one really knows.

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:19

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1041950)
If you want other people to follow your moral rules, shouldn't we know what the justification for them is.

It's very unsatisfying in an argument to suddenly reach the point where someone says, "Well I think it's immoral". It's kind of a dead end for the discussion, but really it shouldn't be. Why should anyone be able to put forward unjustified opinions, especially in a discussion about what the law should be.

A quick look back at my previous posts in this thread will enlighten you to the fact that I have voiced several relevant beliefs about this whole subject ...


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