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-   -   Bundesrat wants to remove incest law (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/101465-bundesrat-wants-remove-incest-law.html)

Guest 11.12.2010 19:58

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042014)
Not least your Brummy thingy - but there have been other things that I have picked up on the past that would certainly point to a certain disdain with regards to the UK.

My disdain for certain feral aspects of British culture do not extend to believing that young women only have babies to get state handouts (or even, if they are, that they should be prevented from doing so), if that's what you are implying.

You know I'm not the chap in the avatar, don't you?

jj muge 11.12.2010 19:58

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1042008)
...having just read that Switzerland has one of the lowest ages of criminal responsibility, at 7, my arguments are starting to wane...

hmmm...and the book doesn't look so tempting anymore.
Based on the only review on amazon by "someone"
"It would be a mistake for readers of this work to accept the accuracy of the material illustrating incestuous relationships and the quality of Mary Hamer's interpretation of that material. To anyone actually familiar with the original material it becomes clear that she repeatedly commits gross errors, including the misattribution and invention of quotations, the invention of narratives and contexts, and displays an ignorance of biographical and chronological fact. This is a thoroughly shoddy piece of work, a shocking violation of the most basic standards of inquiry and analysis"

Sada 11.12.2010 19:58

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Hey Assassin get your arse back in here and see what upheaval you've caused with your thread here!!! :);):eek:

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 20:01

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

My disdain for certain feral aspects of British culture do not extend to believing that young women only have babies to get state handouts (or even, if they are, that they should be prevented from doing so), if that's what you are implying.

You know I'm not the chap in the avatar, don't you?
I kind of thought not. And let's not get involved in an argument about state handouts and whether or not women should be prevented, or discouraged, from popping out sprogs willy nilly.

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 20:01

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:


You know I'm not the chap in the avatar, don't you?
Had me going for months on that one when I first joined :D

MathNut 11.12.2010 20:03

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041980)
I will concede that behind closed doors, between two consenting adults, and if measures are taken to avoid conception, that I offer no argument against this.

Brilliant! So we're down from "It's an indecent/unnatural act" to "some people really shouldn't breed."

One step at a time then. Why shouldn't particular couples breed? Because society has a vested interest in reducing the number of defective children to support, right, got it. Is that interest compelling enough to override personal sexual choice, though?

Think about the ramifications for a minute before you say yes. Is incest the one and only case where you think government should have a veto on people's reproductive decisions? What about related couples whose gene tests indicate they probably are genetically compatible despite being related - can they apply for an exemption in your world? Or what about related couples who realize they may produce a disabled child, but who are willing to take that risk? What if they prove they have the funds to support it without costing society a dime?

Next up, what about unrelated couples who share a dangerous recessive gene? Is it society's business to identify them and stop them from breeding? Or what about:
- drug addicts
- the mentally handicapped
- the fugly
For the greater good of society, should any of them really be breeding? If not, is it the government's place to stop them?

If you're going to draw the line somewhere across the middle of all this (incest laws good, forced sterilization bad) then you need to ground that somehow. Well, you don't need to - unfounded or mysteriously-founded opinions are all right - but it would sure help us have a better discussion.

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 20:03

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jj muge (Post 1042017)
hmmm...and the book doesn't look so tempting anymore.
Based on the only review on amazon by "someone"
"It would be a mistake for readers of this work to accept the accuracy of the material illustrating incestuous relationships and the quality of Mary Hamer's interpretation of that material. To anyone actually familiar with the original material it becomes clear that she repeatedly commits gross errors, including the misattribution and invention of quotations, the invention of narratives and contexts, and displays an ignorance of biographical and chronological fact. This is a thoroughly shoddy piece of work, a shocking violation of the most basic standards of inquiry and analysis"

Someone ???

Still, it was a very good read. Opinions will differ.

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 20:05

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MathNut (Post 1042023)
Brilliant! So we're down from "It's an indecent/unnatural act" to "some people really shouldn't breed."

My arguments and feelings that it is an unnatural act still stand.

Whether or not this should be allowed under law is a point I have already conceded.

jj muge 11.12.2010 20:12

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1042024)
Someone ???

Still, it was a very good read. Opinions will differ.

yes, someone on the internet, his name is Belassis. He is from London...
You mentioned the correlation between incest and abuse. I'm not really educated on this subject so I thought it would be interesting to know more about this correlation as this seemed to be one of the reasons for you to be against the a change in this law.

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 20:14

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jj muge (Post 1042033)
yes, someone on the internet, his name is Belassis. He is from London...
You mentioned the correlation between incest and abuse. I'm not really educated on this subject so I thought it would be interesting to know more about this correlation as this seemed to be one of the reasons for you to be against the a change in this law.

But surely your research beyond Amazon has convinced you of the link ?

jj muge 11.12.2010 20:17

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1042036)
But surely your research beyond Amazon has convinced you of the link ?

obviously I have not done any research.

this is all sounding wrong...sorry. I was just interested in your argument, and wanted to know why you would mention the correlation between abuse and incest in this context

MathNut 11.12.2010 20:20

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1042027)
My arguments and feelings that it is an unnatural act still stand.

Whether or not this should be allowed under law is a point I have already conceded.

Fair enough. :) I think telemarketing is an unnatural act but I concede that it probably oughtn't be an illegal one.

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 20:25

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MathNut (Post 1042040)
Fair enough. :) I think telemarketing is an unnatural act but I concede that it probably oughtn't be an illegal one.

It's a bit harsh to compare Telemarketers with Incestuous child abusers. I am sure some people involved in incest at least make a contribution to society in some way of other.

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 20:30

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1042042)
It's a bit harsh to compare Telemarketers with Incestuous child abusers. I am sure some people involved in incest at least make a contribution to society in some way of other.

It's a bit harsh to compare consenting adults to child abusers generally isn't it?

Wollishofener 11.12.2010 20:30

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sada (Post 1041936)
Do you mean I can have sex with another adult on the bus in broad daylight and not get into trouble with the law?

Your problem then will not be the sex action but various offences
- disturbance of public order
- diverting the attention of the bus-driver
- violating the regulations of the company

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 20:31

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1042044)
It's a bit harsh to compare consenting adults to child abusers generally isn't it?

I don't recall that being said ...

11.12.2010 20:48

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1042027)
it is an unnatural act

so is flying in an aeroplane.

Wollishofener 11.12.2010 20:51

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041972)
On the contrary - does not this in itself imply that law (particularly regarding relations between siblings) was based on something other than morals and beliefs?

The law was based on the fact that incest results almost inevitably in degenerational defects among the offspring. And so in a way IS justified. But the law in its old form is both outdated and most likely ineffective. There still in fact is another law which prohibits the marriage of relatives.

I am absolutely sure that nobody in the Federal Council is in favour of incest. They just propose to drop a law which in practice, under the framework of the rest of the legislation, cannot really be brought into effect.

Let's be clear, we speak here about sexual contact among relatives who both AGREE. Now imagine something thelike taking place. What do you expect ? The neighbours spying on them, taking a video with some technical tricks ? And then notifying the police ?

nickatbasel 11.12.2010 21:09

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
I'm surprised the SVP are opposed to such a change in the law - given their typical electoral base.

Cheers,
Nick

Deep Purple 11.12.2010 21:09

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
With all the discussion going on, everyone seems to have missed that Sada wants to have sex on a bus in broad daylight :rolleyes: ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sada (Post 1041936)
Do you mean I can have sex with another adult on the bus in broad daylight and not get into trouble with the law?


Nil 11.12.2010 21:38

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1041973)
That's mainly because abuse is more easily executed in secret from within the home/behind closed doors. This isn't relevant to the argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041976)
I disagree. I believe that this fact is completely relevant to the argument.

How?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041980)
I will concede that behind closed doors, between two consenting adults, and if measures are taken to avoid conception, that I offer no argument against this.

Why? I know plenty of couples (first degree cousins) who got married and had children all in very good health. Why those one shouldn't be allowed to have kids? Why those ones, should be controled when other non-related couples have kids with deep birth disease? Ok, Between a brother and a sister, that would bring the chance to high to not have some concerns about it, but cousins? Many cultures don't see mariage between cousins as an ethical problem. And numbers doesn't show enough correlations to support a direct cause of childbirth defects between those cousins.

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 21:48

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1042101)
How?

Are you serious? 'The fact abuse is more easily executed in secret from within the home/behind closed doors' is what I was referring to here and I still maintain that this point is relevant to the discussion.

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 21:50

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042113)
Are you serious? 'The fact abuse is more easily executed in secret from within the home/behind closed doors' is what I was referring to here and I still maintain that this point is relevant to the discussion.

You're still talking about abuse, but the thread is about incest. :confused:

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 21:51

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1042114)
You're still talking about abuse, but the thread is about incest. :confused:

I was quoting Economisto there ... please try and keep up

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 21:57

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042115)
I was quoting Economisto there ... please try and keep up

He said it wasn't relevant. You said that you thought it was.

So yes, you're still talking about abuse, which has nothing really to do with the incest law.

Leni 11.12.2010 21:57

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sada (Post 1042018)
Hey Assassin get your arse back in here and see what upheaval you've caused with your thread here!!! :);):eek:

Bloody typical.

Nil 11.12.2010 21:58

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042113)
Are you serious? 'The fact abuse is more easily executed in secret from within the home/behind closed doors' is what I was referring to here and I still maintain that this point is relevant to the discussion.

No it isn't. You are talking about abuse and yes you are right. But Inceste isn't all and just about abuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1042114)
You're still talking about abuse, but the thread is about incest. :confused:

Thank you

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042115)
I was quoting Economisto there ... please try and keep up

Are you going to play that groaning Tit for Tat that long? Because really it is boring and not very innovative. You groan a hell lots for someone with this amount of thank and groan yourself. Is it why you have been ban?

That doesn't give you a good reputation to be The groaner...

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 22:04

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1042128)
Are you going to play that groaning Tit for Tat that long? Because really it is boring and not very innovative. You groan a hell lots for someone with this amount of thank and groan yourself. Is it why you have been ban?

That doesn't give you a good reputation to be The groaner...

And this is relevant to this thread? Please keep on topic ...

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 22:05

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1042124)
He said it wasn't relevant. You said that you thought it was.

So yes, you're still talking about abuse, which has nothing really to do with the incest law.

Perhaps, but my initial point was that abuse could result from a relaxing of the incest laws.

Nil 11.12.2010 22:05

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042134)
And this is relevant to this thread? Please keep on topic ...

It is actually since you keep groaning people on THIS thread!

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 22:07

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1042138)
It is actually since you keep groaning people on THIS thread!

As do you! Now please stop going on about groaning and add something constructive to this thread.

Guest 11.12.2010 22:08

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
I am not a genetic expert- but there is plenty of scientific/medical evidence that babies born of direct cousins are much more likely to have all sorts of defects. Hopefully somebody with more specific knowledge will come forward with some statistical information and relevant links, please. Which is why I groaned nil- because the information given is truly dangerous and inexcusable, sorry.

Nil 11.12.2010 22:14

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042140)
As do you! Now please stop going on about groaning and add something constructive to this thread.

Just with you. And look up, I brang something constructive. I don't believe that inceste brings more child abuse. I believe child abuse is more belong incest.

Inceste is too persons closely related having sex. One being without abuse and with consentants partners and the other one between two persons with one being abused by the other one.

To get rid of the law about inceste isn't going to stop, prevent or push people to do it or not. Law against abuse are still in place to protect the potential victims. But the law also prohibit 2 adults to freely get engage in a relation that both want to have. Why so? Why 2 adults who wants to be together should be stopped by the law? To protect minorities? of what? abuse? Those two situations are not connected together and the law is already in place for the other situation.

Wollishofener 11.12.2010 22:21

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nickatbasel (Post 1042080)
I'm surprised the SVP are opposed to such a change in the law - given their typical electoral base.

Cheers,
Nick

Quite to the contrary. Their traditional base opposes things like incest very strongly. Their lawyers of course now very well that the law in question is outdated and ineffective. Those lawyers also know that there is an abundance of laws restricting all possible forms of incest. Do not forget that many things in Switzerland are regulated by up to 4 different laws to the same subject. And this does not include numerous Cantonal laws and municipal regulations. The CVP on their side realized that incest is also prohibited by the Bible, and so, together with the Protestant EVP, built a kind of coalition with the SVP on this matter. Much here right now is just done in view of the parliamentary elections 2011 ;)

Nil 11.12.2010 22:23

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Degrees of relationship


Relatives are described by the closeness of their blood relationship. For example:
  • First degree relatives share half their genetic information. First degree relatives include a person’s siblings, non-identical twin, parents and children.
  • Second degree relatives share one-quarter of their genetic information. Second degree relatives include a person’s half-siblings, uncles and aunts, nephews and nieces, and grandparents.
  • Third degree relatives share one-eighth of their genetic material and include a person’s first cousins, half-uncles, half-aunts, half-nephews and half-nieces.

More information here

Quote:

Incidence of birth defects
A child of unrelated parents has a risk of around two to three per cent of being born with a birth defect or genetic disorder. This risk is approximately doubled (4–6%) for children of first cousins without a family history of genetic disorders. The risk of birth defects or death for children of first degree relatives – for example, parent and child or brother and sister – rises to about 30 per cent]

smackerjack 11.12.2010 22:24

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

I am not a genetic expert- but there is plenty of scientific/medical evidence that babies born of direct cousins are much more likely to have all sorts of defects..
I'm sure I have read that if babies born of direct cousins are healthy this is still unsafe as their children can be born with a defect as it jumps a generation..

Wollishofener 11.12.2010 22:31

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042137)
Perhaps, but my initial point was that abuse could result from a relaxing of the incest laws.

No, this proves that your "initial point" is wrong. Abuse is covered by many other and quite definite laws. So that the dropping of the law mentioned (not "relaxing of 'the' incest laws") does not result in allowing "abuse". In France, your claim that the members of the national cabinet were idiots, would bring you into severe problems, really :D

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 22:32

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042137)
Perhaps, but my initial point was that abuse could result from a relaxing of the incest laws.

It's worth bearing in mind that all of the recent cases in Switzerland the child abuse laws also applied. This is the motivation for the repeal . . . that the incest law is redundant as the abuse laws are already sufficient.

http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/10ba...une_bonne_idée

You put forward your 'hypothesis', but it's not a good one. This is not necessarily because it's untrue, but because it's not testable and hard to falsify. What might count as evidence against your claim?

Perhaps you might have put forward some supporting material instead?

It was also quite a leap from suggesting a practical disadvantage to the repeal (the 'green light') to suddenly suggesting that incest was 'morally ill-conceived'.

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 22:36

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1042164)
No, this proves that your "initial point" is wrong. Abuse is covered by many other and quite definite laws. So that the dropping of the law mentioned (not "relaxing of 'the' incest laws") does not result in allowing "abuse". In France, your claim that the members of the national cabinet were idiots, would bring you into severe problems, really :D

I did not say that it would be allowed, but simply that it could be the unfortunate effect of relaxing incest laws.

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 22:39

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1042165)
http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/10ba23fe-c29c-11df-a569-2385a4a9126b/Dépénaliser_linceste_nest_pas_une_bonne_idée

You put forward your 'hypothesis', but it's not a good one. This is not necessarily because it's untrue, but because it's not testable and hard to falsify. What might count as evidence against your claim?

Perhaps you might have put forward some supporting material instead?

I am sorry, but I am not a lawyer - if you feel that my 'hypothesis' is not a good one, then that is your privilege. And by the same token, I do not feel the need to justify every post that I make here.


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