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-   -   Bundesrat wants to remove incest law (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/101465-bundesrat-wants-remove-incest-law.html)

Guest 11.12.2010 19:07

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041923)
Nature hardwires humans against the act.

If that was the case, then it wouldn't exist, would it? :rolleyes:

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:08

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

On what grounds?

And what right has government to dictate sexual morals where consenting adults are involved?
Nature itself implemented a means whereby siblings are not sexually attracted to each other, for good reason I think. It is called the Westermarck effect, but it unfortunately diminishes in power after the age of about six.


Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 19:08

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041923)
...unnatural. Acted against by nature in humans. Nature hardwires humans against the act. If you aren't against it, check your wiring.

And are you SO certain of what's 'natural' and what isn't?

I suppose that contact lenses, antibiotics, contraception, fertility treatment and all kinds of other medical interventions are problematic for you too.

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 19:09

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1041921)
The purpose of repealing the law is so that consenting adults aren't prosecuted for something which does absolutely no harm to anyone else.

By the way, if you're main aim here is to prevent the production of 'defective' offspring, are there other groups you'd like to target, perhaps with sterilization or gene therapy? The urge to do away with those with genetic illnesses would seem more at home in the 1930s when eugenics was popular.

Your style of discussion this evening doesn't seem particularly level.

Not level ,from the weird angle you are coming in at. Dragging the thread off into eugenics and gene therapy is moving too far away from the subject. You have no case to argue, Nature has made it's purpose clear, and designed us to avoid incest. There is nothing to be gained from incest, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 19:10

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1041932)
And are you SO certain of what's 'natural' and what isn't?

I suppose that contact lenses, antibiotics, contraception, fertility treatment and all kinds of other medical interventions are problematic for you too.

Not at all...

Guest 11.12.2010 19:10

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041931)
Nature itself implemented a means whereby siblings are not sexually attracted to each other, for good reason I think.

Well, if that's the case, then there's no need for a law, is there? :)

Sada 11.12.2010 19:10

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

On what grounds?

And what right has government to dictate sexual morals where consenting adults are involved?
Do you mean I can have sex with another adult on the bus in broad daylight and not get into trouble with the law?

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:11

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1041925)
Morally ill-conceived on what basis? Where are you getting your morality from and why should others be subject to it?

Why not? I am entitled to my own opinion and this is a discussion forum.

11.12.2010 19:11

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimster (Post 1041463)
How about the children? They or society are the ones that will have to deal with their disabilities and deformities that may result from this and even if all is okay genetically, there is still the stigma associated with this.

Aha! This is exactly the same field of play as the pro-right-to-abortion argument, and one that I was brought round to by certain forumers here. It isn't illegal for a pregnant mother to pound vodka, because law makers are understandable reticent about making laws that affect what we're allowed to do with our own bodies, irrespective of harming an unborn child. This is the same with incest - if a mother is allowed to harm her foetus with smoking and drinking then the same must logically be true of engaging in incest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lost_inbroad (Post 1041676)
No, Odile said "I don't understand incest, just like I don't understand being gay but I try to be tolerant...". That means that to him/her homosexuality and incest is on the same level which isn't at all since one cannot chose to be homosexual but one can surely chose to be involved in incest (at least in Western culture one can chose).

Incest is on the same level as homosexuality. As well as hetrosexuality. They're just sexual preferences. I wouldn't say any can be helped (though actually engaging in intercourse can be resisted by all three groups). Incest creates disabled children, homosexual sex creates no children and hetrosexual sex creates too many children. Again, I don't see the basic ethical distinction.

What they share in the realm of sexual preferences is that they exclusively involve consenting adults, unlike paedophilia and bestiality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by altehase (Post 1041727)
That's why there are laws against incest. To declare that these things are unimportant in the face of the important issues facing the Swiss government is crass. Wake the f**k up!

So what you're saying is, there are laws against incest because there are laws against incest?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041901)
Human laws are irrelevant here, The laws of nature, and genetics take precedent. Incestuous people are like GM scientists, in it for greed and lust and to he'll with the consequences. It has been wrong since the beginning, outcast since the beginning and no amount of liberal thinking will produce a strong enough case that will change how nature makes us think about these acts. Pro-incest arguments reveal just a little too much about the prescribed.

There are no laws of genetics. There are views. You, as I, am unable to predict the future logical progression of one decision or another on genetics. Incest causes mutation, but mutation is the only reason we don't still live in the sea. And there are other issues to consider beyond genetics - if there weren't we just let the top 1% breed. And then some of the people on this thread would be sh!t outta luck.

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 19:12

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

If that was the case, then it wouldn't exist, would it? :rolleyes:
But it does, as with any other aberration... It fails to be part of natural selection , fails to offer anything to the species and will always be a freak act.

Guest 11.12.2010 19:12

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041933)
There is nothing to be gained from incest, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

Now... where have I heard this argument before...?

Oh yes...

There is nothing to be gained from felatio, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

There is nothing to be gained from anal sex, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

There is nothing to be gained from cunnilingus, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

There is nothing to be gained from homosexuality, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

Describing sexual acts between consenting adults as "selfish, shallow acts of abuse" is a slippery road to go down. :msnshock:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041941)
But it does, as with any other aberration... It fails to be part of natural selection , fails to offer anything to the species and will always be a freak act.

So is sex on the pill, amongst other things. Are you quite so hysterical in your condemnation of that?

MathNut 11.12.2010 19:13

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041919)
So, does that imply that you are pro incestuouos relationships?

DB ain't my brother if that's what you wanted to know. :D

I am pro- government keeping its nose to itself, since you asked. To convince me we should have laws about bedroom activity - any bedroom activity - between consenting adults, you need to demonstrate an overwhelming interest in regulating the particular behavior for the good of society. Otherwise you are just arguing that your own definitions of "natural behavior" and "common decency" should have the force of law.

In this day and age (thanks to contraception, pre-natal screening, etc.) it is really hard to make the social argument stick - so yes, I think laws should be relaxed accordingly - even laws about behavior which I have absolutely no personal interest in indulging. My personal interest or lack of it is utterly beside the point.

11.12.2010 19:14

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041939)
Why not? I am entitled to my own opinion and this is a discussion forum.

zzzz GG questioned your opinion and since this is a discussion forum please discuss or visit a monologue forum instead (twitter?)

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 19:14

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041933)
Not level ,from the weird angle you are coming in at. Dragging the thread off into eugenics and gene therapy is moving too far away from the subject. You have no case to argue, Nature has made it's purpose clear, and designed us to avoid incest. There is nothing to be gained from incest, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

All you keep doing is saying, "it's not natural", without any further justification for why that would be important, without any further explanation of what you consider 'natural', nor any real understanding of why contraception would make this line-of-reasoning redundant anyway.

The purpose of talking about eugenics to show the absurdity of one of your reasons . . . It also shows the dubious political angle.

jj muge 11.12.2010 19:15

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Now... where have I heard this argument before...?

Oh yes...

There is nothing to be gained from felatio, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

There is nothing to be gained from anal sex, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

There is nothing to be gained from cunnilingus, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

There is nothing to be gained from homosexuality, it is a selfish shallow act of abuse.

Describing sexual acts between consenting adults as "selfish, shallow acts of abuse" is a slippery road to go down. :msnshock:
So is sex on the pill, amongst other things. Are you quite so hysterical in your condemnation of that?
What is meant with abuse? An abuse of what?

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:17

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1041944)
zzzz GG questioned your opinion and since this is a discussion forum please discuss or visit a monologue forum instead (twitter?)

Go back to bed ... with whomsoever you wish.

Guest 11.12.2010 19:17

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jj muge (Post 1041946)
What is meant with abuse? An abuse of what?

Ask Upthehatters. He was the one who said it. :)

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 19:18

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041939)
Why not? I am entitled to my own opinion and this is a discussion forum.

If you want other people to follow your moral rules, shouldn't we know what the justification for them is.

It's very unsatisfying in an argument to suddenly reach the point where someone says, "Well I think it's immoral". It's kind of a dead end for the discussion, but really it shouldn't be. Why should anyone be able to put forward unjustified opinions, especially in a discussion about what the law should be.

11.12.2010 19:18

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jj muge (Post 1041946)
What is meant with abuse? An abuse of what?

Exactly. No one really knows.

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:19

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1041950)
If you want other people to follow your moral rules, shouldn't we know what the justification for them is.

It's very unsatisfying in an argument to suddenly reach the point where someone says, "Well I think it's immoral". It's kind of a dead end for the discussion, but really it shouldn't be. Why should anyone be able to put forward unjustified opinions, especially in a discussion about what the law should be.

A quick look back at my previous posts in this thread will enlighten you to the fact that I have voiced several relevant beliefs about this whole subject ...


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