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-   -   Bundesrat wants to remove incest law (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/101465-bundesrat-wants-remove-incest-law.html)

jj muge 11.12.2010 19:20

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Ask Upthehatters. He was the one who said it. :)
yes, sorry I was unclear, it was not directed at you. Just trying to understand what this means/if the word has another meaning which I don't know

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 19:20

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
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Now... where have I heard this argument before...?

...


So is sex on the pill, amongst other things. Are you quite so hysterical in your condemnation of that?
You keep dragging morality into this, read my initial posts. I put morality and ethics aside and form a view based on natural observation.

As a teacher, do your scientific research first. Making me out to be puritanical and Victorian is an argument you don't have to start.

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 19:22

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
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Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1041951)
Exactly. No one really knows.

There are close correlations between incest and abuse, I think Mary Hamer wrote a book on it not long ago...

Sada 11.12.2010 19:23

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
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Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1041950)
If you want other people to follow your moral rules, shouldn't we know what the justification for them is.

Isn't anything sex related based on moral rules?
And if you trace down what moral rules are, where they come from .... dear me this is going to turn down right nasty. You watch, you'll see.

Guest 11.12.2010 19:23

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041956)
You keep dragging morality into this, read my initial posts. I put morality and ethics aside and form a view based on natural observation.

So, if nature regulates itself in this regard, there's no need for a law against it, is there?

Quote:

As a teacher, do your scientific research first. Making me out to be puritanical and Victorian is an argument you don't have to start.
I'm just looking for some consistency. If felatio, cunnilingus and anal sex between consenting adults are acceptable behaviour, why isn't incest?

MathNut 11.12.2010 19:26

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041956)
I put morality and ethics aside and form a view based on natural observation.

Fine, do that - but like I said: as a farm girl, I really seriously have to question your powers of observation. :) How much time have you actually spent doing this "natural observation" of yours and on what species?

Or are you just extrapolating from personal predilections: "I don't fancy my cousin and none of my mates fancy their cousins, in fact I don't think I've ever met anyone who fancied their cousin, ergo there must be something unnatural about it" - is that it?

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 19:26

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041956)
You keep dragging morality into this, read my initial posts. I put morality and ethics aside and form a view based on natural observation.

As a teacher, do your scientific research first. Making me out to be puritanical and Victorian is an argument you don't have to start.

To say that one should 'follow nature' to a greater or lesser degree is in itself a moral decision, or the basis for a moral code.

You haven't really been able to explain why one should follow nature and to what degree. Why are some behaviours allowed because they're 'natural' and others not. As has already been said, your form of "It's against nature" argument would be the same against homosexuality.

Also, depending on how it's cached out, it's definitely somewhat puritanical to say that natural observation should be the primary impetus behind policy.

It's not me that's coming from the weird political angle here . . . This kind of legal modernisation is happening across Europe.

11.12.2010 19:29

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041956)
You keep dragging morality into this, read my initial posts. I put morality and ethics aside and form a view based on natural observation.

UTH, this isn't true. You're saying your views are objective because they're based on natural phenomena, but all views are so based and all just as subjective. Whether you call it moral or ethical or quote an ephemeral "natural law" this simply does not mean you have a higher access to truth than everyone else. As I said previously, neither you nor anyone else actually believes that the genetic health argument trumps all other arguments. That's why you didn't survey the world to determine your genetic superiority before deciding to have your own children.

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 19:30

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

So, if nature regulates itself in this regard, there's no need for a law against it, is there?



I'm just looking for some consistency. If felatio, cunnilingus and anal sex between consenting adults are acceptable behaviour, why isn't incest?
The massive majority of incestuous cases involve abuse of a minor.

Wollishofener 11.12.2010 19:30

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Do they sell condoms in Switzerland, I wonder?
In case this is meant as a kind of joke, it is not. Certain Cantons in practice, deeply into "modern" times, restricted the sale of condoms and pills. And the Catholic Church bans the use of both still.

Guest 11.12.2010 19:31

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
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Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1041968)
And the Catholic Church bans the use of both still.

To their credit, at least they have some moral consistency... :D

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 19:31

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sada (Post 1041959)
Isn't anything sex related based on moral rules?
And if you trace down what moral rules are, where they come from .... dear me this is going to turn down right nasty. You watch, you'll see.

Of course there's moral debate about behaviour, especially sex . . . but one can at least try to provide some justification.

If I say that, for example, my principle is that anything should be allowed unless it harms someone else . . . that would allow incest.

If I think that my rules are set by the Bible, that would also be some form of justification for more restrictive rules.

But, you know, we should know where people are coming from. And so should they.

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:32

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Well, if that's the case, then there's no need for a law, is there? :)
On the contrary - does not this in itself imply that law (particularly regarding relations between siblings) was based on something other than morals and beliefs?

11.12.2010 19:32

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041966)
The massive majority of incestuous cases involve abuse of a minor.

That's mainly because abuse is more easily executed in secret from within the home/behind closed doors. This isn't relevant to the argument.

Guest 11.12.2010 19:33

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041966)
The massive majority of incestuous cases involve abuse of a minor.

They are - and will continue to be - covered by child abuse laws.

What relevance has that to the argument for allowing consenting adults to engage in incestuous behaviour?

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 19:34

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1041964)
UTH, this isn't true. You're saying your views are objective because they're based on natural phenomena, but all views are so based and all just as subjective. Whether you call it moral or ethical or quote an ephemeral "natural law" this simply does not mean you have a higher access to truth than everyone else. As I said previously, neither you nor anyone else actually believes that the genetic health argument trumps all other arguments. That's why you didn't survey the world to determine your genetic superiority before deciding to have your own children.


My argument is the scientific evidence to suggest we are hard wired against it for a purpose. I do not make a choice, I accept that my deep aversion to incest is a natural feeling , not one of a moral or heartfelt decision.

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:34

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by economisto (Post 1041973)
That's mainly because abuse is more easily executed in secret from within the home/behind closed doors. This isn't relevant to the argument.

I disagree. I believe that this fact is completely relevant to the argument.

Guest 11.12.2010 19:34

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041972)
On the contrary - does not this in itself imply that law (particularly regarding relations between siblings) was based on something other than morals and beliefs?

Yes, based on the necessities of former times, as has already been explained at length.

Now there is contraception, there is no need for such laws, is there?

Guest 11.12.2010 19:36

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041975)
My argument is the scientific evidence to suggest we are hard wired against it for a purpose. I do not make a choice, I accept that my deep aversion to incest is a natural feeling , not one of a moral or heartfelt decision.

Do you accept that my deep aversion to being shafted up the arse by a big hairy biker is a natural feeling, too?

Or does this airy-fairy "nature" argument only apply to incest?

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 19:36

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

They are - and will continue to be - covered by child abuse laws.

What relevance has that to the argument for allowing consenting adults to engage in incestuous behaviour?
I will concede that behind closed doors, between two consenting adults, and if measures are taken to avoid conception, that I offer no argument against this.


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