Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:20
jj muge's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: BE
Posts: 249
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 189 Times in 108 Posts
jj muge has an excellent reputationjj muge has an excellent reputationjj muge has an excellent reputationjj muge has an excellent reputation
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
Ask Upthehatters. He was the one who said it.
yes, sorry I was unclear, it was not directed at you. Just trying to understand what this means/if the word has another meaning which I don't know
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:20
Upthehatters2008's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the kitchen at parties.
Posts: 4,540
Groaned at 204 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,078 Times in 2,378 Posts
Upthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
Now... where have I heard this argument before...?

...


So is sex on the pill, amongst other things. Are you quite so hysterical in your condemnation of that?
You keep dragging morality into this, read my initial posts. I put morality and ethics aside and form a view based on natural observation.

As a teacher, do your scientific research first. Making me out to be puritanical and Victorian is an argument you don't have to start.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Upthehatters2008 for this useful post:
  #123  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:22
Upthehatters2008's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the kitchen at parties.
Posts: 4,540
Groaned at 204 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,078 Times in 2,378 Posts
Upthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
Exactly. No one really knows.
There are close correlations between incest and abuse, I think Mary Hamer wrote a book on it not long ago...
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Upthehatters2008 for this useful post:
  #124  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:23
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: OOO
Posts: 3,724
Groaned at 79 Times in 55 Posts
Thanked 1,683 Times in 1,017 Posts
Sada has a reputation beyond reputeSada has a reputation beyond reputeSada has a reputation beyond reputeSada has a reputation beyond reputeSada has a reputation beyond reputeSada has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
If you want other people to follow your moral rules, shouldn't we know what the justification for them is.
Isn't anything sex related based on moral rules?
And if you trace down what moral rules are, where they come from .... dear me this is going to turn down right nasty. You watch, you'll see.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Sada for this useful post:
  #125  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:23
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
You keep dragging morality into this, read my initial posts. I put morality and ethics aside and form a view based on natural observation.
So, if nature regulates itself in this regard, there's no need for a law against it, is there?

Quote:
As a teacher, do your scientific research first. Making me out to be puritanical and Victorian is an argument you don't have to start.
I'm just looking for some consistency. If felatio, cunnilingus and anal sex between consenting adults are acceptable behaviour, why isn't incest?
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:26
MathNut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kt. Glarus
Posts: 4,417
Groaned at 34 Times in 32 Posts
Thanked 10,952 Times in 3,253 Posts
MathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond reputeMathNut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
I put morality and ethics aside and form a view based on natural observation.
Fine, do that - but like I said: as a farm girl, I really seriously have to question your powers of observation. How much time have you actually spent doing this "natural observation" of yours and on what species?

Or are you just extrapolating from personal predilections: "I don't fancy my cousin and none of my mates fancy their cousins, in fact I don't think I've ever met anyone who fancied their cousin, ergo there must be something unnatural about it" - is that it?
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:26
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,553
Groaned at 49 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
You keep dragging morality into this, read my initial posts. I put morality and ethics aside and form a view based on natural observation.

As a teacher, do your scientific research first. Making me out to be puritanical and Victorian is an argument you don't have to start.
To say that one should 'follow nature' to a greater or lesser degree is in itself a moral decision, or the basis for a moral code.

You haven't really been able to explain why one should follow nature and to what degree. Why are some behaviours allowed because they're 'natural' and others not. As has already been said, your form of "It's against nature" argument would be the same against homosexuality.

Also, depending on how it's cached out, it's definitely somewhat puritanical to say that natural observation should be the primary impetus behind policy.

It's not me that's coming from the weird political angle here . . . This kind of legal modernisation is happening across Europe.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Gastro Gnome for this useful post:
  #128  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:29
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
You keep dragging morality into this, read my initial posts. I put morality and ethics aside and form a view based on natural observation.
UTH, this isn't true. You're saying your views are objective because they're based on natural phenomena, but all views are so based and all just as subjective. Whether you call it moral or ethical or quote an ephemeral "natural law" this simply does not mean you have a higher access to truth than everyone else. As I said previously, neither you nor anyone else actually believes that the genetic health argument trumps all other arguments. That's why you didn't survey the world to determine your genetic superiority before deciding to have your own children.
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:30
Upthehatters2008's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the kitchen at parties.
Posts: 4,540
Groaned at 204 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,078 Times in 2,378 Posts
Upthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
So, if nature regulates itself in this regard, there's no need for a law against it, is there?



I'm just looking for some consistency. If felatio, cunnilingus and anal sex between consenting adults are acceptable behaviour, why isn't incest?
The massive majority of incestuous cases involve abuse of a minor.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Upthehatters2008 for this useful post:
  #130  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:30
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 18,978
Groaned at 332 Times in 257 Posts
Thanked 11,715 Times in 6,858 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
Do they sell condoms in Switzerland, I wonder?
In case this is meant as a kind of joke, it is not. Certain Cantons in practice, deeply into "modern" times, restricted the sale of condoms and pills. And the Catholic Church bans the use of both still.
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:31
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
And the Catholic Church bans the use of both still.
To their credit, at least they have some moral consistency...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #132  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:31
Gastro Gnome's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 3,553
Groaned at 49 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 2,856 Times in 1,550 Posts
Gastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond reputeGastro Gnome has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
Isn't anything sex related based on moral rules?
And if you trace down what moral rules are, where they come from .... dear me this is going to turn down right nasty. You watch, you'll see.
Of course there's moral debate about behaviour, especially sex . . . but one can at least try to provide some justification.

If I say that, for example, my principle is that anything should be allowed unless it harms someone else . . . that would allow incest.

If I think that my rules are set by the Bible, that would also be some form of justification for more restrictive rules.

But, you know, we should know where people are coming from. And so should they.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Gastro Gnome for this useful post:
  #133  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:32
NSchulzi's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 2,422
Groaned at 52 Times in 33 Posts
Thanked 2,523 Times in 1,215 Posts
NSchulzi has a reputation beyond reputeNSchulzi has a reputation beyond reputeNSchulzi has a reputation beyond reputeNSchulzi has a reputation beyond reputeNSchulzi has a reputation beyond reputeNSchulzi has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
Well, if that's the case, then there's no need for a law, is there?
On the contrary - does not this in itself imply that law (particularly regarding relations between siblings) was based on something other than morals and beliefs?
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:32
economisto
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
The massive majority of incestuous cases involve abuse of a minor.
That's mainly because abuse is more easily executed in secret from within the home/behind closed doors. This isn't relevant to the argument.
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:33
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
The massive majority of incestuous cases involve abuse of a minor.
They are - and will continue to be - covered by child abuse laws.

What relevance has that to the argument for allowing consenting adults to engage in incestuous behaviour?
Reply With Quote
  #136  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:34
Upthehatters2008's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the kitchen at parties.
Posts: 4,540
Groaned at 204 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,078 Times in 2,378 Posts
Upthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
UTH, this isn't true. You're saying your views are objective because they're based on natural phenomena, but all views are so based and all just as subjective. Whether you call it moral or ethical or quote an ephemeral "natural law" this simply does not mean you have a higher access to truth than everyone else. As I said previously, neither you nor anyone else actually believes that the genetic health argument trumps all other arguments. That's why you didn't survey the world to determine your genetic superiority before deciding to have your own children.

My argument is the scientific evidence to suggest we are hard wired against it for a purpose. I do not make a choice, I accept that my deep aversion to incest is a natural feeling , not one of a moral or heartfelt decision.
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:34
NSchulzi's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 2,422
Groaned at 52 Times in 33 Posts
Thanked 2,523 Times in 1,215 Posts
NSchulzi has a reputation beyond reputeNSchulzi has a reputation beyond reputeNSchulzi has a reputation beyond reputeNSchulzi has a reputation beyond reputeNSchulzi has a reputation beyond reputeNSchulzi has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
That's mainly because abuse is more easily executed in secret from within the home/behind closed doors. This isn't relevant to the argument.
I disagree. I believe that this fact is completely relevant to the argument.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at NSchulzi for this post:
  #138  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:34
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
On the contrary - does not this in itself imply that law (particularly regarding relations between siblings) was based on something other than morals and beliefs?
Yes, based on the necessities of former times, as has already been explained at length.

Now there is contraception, there is no need for such laws, is there?
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:36
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
View Post
My argument is the scientific evidence to suggest we are hard wired against it for a purpose. I do not make a choice, I accept that my deep aversion to incest is a natural feeling , not one of a moral or heartfelt decision.
Do you accept that my deep aversion to being shafted up the arse by a big hairy biker is a natural feeling, too?

Or does this airy-fairy "nature" argument only apply to incest?
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 11.12.2010, 20:36
Upthehatters2008's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: In the kitchen at parties.
Posts: 4,540
Groaned at 204 Times in 120 Posts
Thanked 6,078 Times in 2,378 Posts
Upthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond reputeUpthehatters2008 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law

Quote:
They are - and will continue to be - covered by child abuse laws.

What relevance has that to the argument for allowing consenting adults to engage in incestuous behaviour?
I will concede that behind closed doors, between two consenting adults, and if measures are taken to avoid conception, that I offer no argument against this.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Upthehatters2008 for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
bundesrat, family, incest, intercourse, legislation




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
We have a new girlie in the Bundesrat Assassin Swiss politics/news 68 29.09.2010 18:38
Didier Burkhalter, the new Bundesrat Wollishofener Swiss politics/news 13 12.10.2009 10:05
Election of Bundesrat Guest Swiss politics/news 138 07.03.2008 08:09
Remove Baseboards for Wardrobe? mgmidget72 Housing in general 7 06.09.2007 10:42


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:50.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0