English Forum Switzerland

English Forum Switzerland (https://www.englishforum.ch/forum.php)
-   Swiss politics/news (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/)
-   -   Bundesrat wants to remove incest law (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/101465-bundesrat-wants-remove-incest-law.html)

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 19:37

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041966)
The massive majority of incestuous cases involve abuse of a minor.

And the current laws against incest didn't prevent them . . .

So change the law to explicitly have greater penalties for cases of child abuse involving incest. But why penalise consenting adults?

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:38

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Yes, based on the necessities of former times, as has already been explained at length.

Now there is contraception, there is no need for such laws, is there?
I don't think so. Contraception exists in the UK and look at the birth rate there amongst young single women, for whom contraception is freely available. Also, look at the incidence of STDs, which also suggests the lack of the use of condoms, at least.

Guest 11.12.2010 19:38

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041980)
I will concede that behind closed doors, between two consenting adults, and if measures are taken to avoid conception, that I offer no argument against this.

There we go, then. There is no reason whatsoever why the blanket law against incest should not be repealed.

Where abuse of children and the vulnerable takes place, then it can be dealt with by existing laws. Otherwise, consenting adults are free to sleep with whomever they choose.

Sounds like a plan. Perhaps we should suggest it to the Bundesrat?

Oh, hang on... they're already doing it...

jj muge 11.12.2010 19:39

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041958)
There are close correlations between incest and abuse, I think Mary Hamer wrote a book on it not long ago...

can you give us some insight on this or do I have to read the book(!!) ?:msntongue:

"Incest: A new perspective" Mary Hamer?

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 19:39

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041975)
My argument is the scientific evidence to suggest we are hard wired against it for a purpose. I do not make a choice, I accept that my deep aversion to incest is a natural feeling , not one of a moral or heartfelt decision.

Fine . . . so your 'natural feeling' should dissuade you from incest.

Why are someone else's feelings, less natural than yours?

Guest 11.12.2010 19:40

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1041983)
I don't think so. Contraception exists in the UK and look at the birth rate there amongst young single women, for whom contraception is freely available.

Perhaps they are choosing to have children. Isn't that their right?


Quote:

Also, look at the incidence of STDs, which also suggests the lack of the use of condoms, at least.
So because some people are irresponsible, everyone should have their rights restricted?

Perhaps we'd be better just sterilising all stupid people?

11.12.2010 19:40

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041975)
My argument is the scientific evidence to suggest we are hard wired against it for a purpose

Totally true. However when you say "purpose" you're imbuing natural selection with anthropomorphism it doesn't deserve. Lack of incest and homosexuality is what got us here today, as a species. But during our evolution, there were no laws against either. They were relatively rare enough that broadly, it didn't matter. Having said that, they were inevitably far more common than they are today - in fact, through the majority of our evolution we roamed the earth in tiny tribes, only settling down 15000 years ago.

The other thing is that we're also wired to be scared of spiders, but in other cases get thrills out of doing dangerous things. Our "hard wiring" can't check if the bungee cable has been correctly secured to the bridge, and thus whether we're engaging in an activity that will stop our genetic progression in it's tracks, or give us a bit of harmless fun. Until it can, let's leave it out of the Bundesrat.

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 19:43

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

There we go, then. There is no reason whatsoever why the blanket law against incest should not be repealed.

Where abuse of children and the vulnerable takes place, then it can be dealt with by existing laws. Otherwise, consenting adults are free to sleep with whomever they choose.

Sounds like a plan. Perhaps we should suggest it to the Bundesrat?

Oh, hang on... they're already doing it...
What laws cover a 13 year old boy abusing his 11 year old sister ?

Guest 11.12.2010 19:44

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041991)
What laws cover a 13 year old boy abusing his 11 year old sister ?

Er... child molestation laws. As I understand it, the age of consent in Switzerland is somewhat higher than 11 years.

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 19:44

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1041991)
What laws cover a 13 year old boy abusing his 11 year old sister ?

Not sure about Switzerland. In the UK there are lots of laws against this.

Sada 11.12.2010 19:45

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1041982)
And the current laws against incest didn't prevent them . . .

So change the law to explicitly have greater penalties for cases of child abuse involving incest. But why penalise consenting adults?

Because it isn't about penalising consenting adults for what they do in their bedroom perhaps,
but about not committing an incestrous act no matter who where and when?

c'est ša non??? that is what it is all about oder?

Faltrad 11.12.2010 19:47

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Will you feel offended if I talk about Levi Strauss? To him, prohibition of incest is a social necessity as a structural rule. In order to encourage exogamy, the prohibition of endogamic mariages must be based on taboos strong enough to keep the male population in a patriarchal society off the females of their own clan/tribe/community. This allows to build links and reinforce solidarity between communities/clans and promote peace as well as a better economical base for exchange and a higher variety of goods avaibable in the communities.

Just that you might consider something else than just bioloy...

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 19:47

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1041994)
Not sure about Switzerland. In the UK there are lots of laws against this.

Agreed, but I was talking locally...

Gastro Gnome 11.12.2010 19:51

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sada (Post 1041995)
Because it isn't about penalising consenting adults for what they do in their bedroom perhaps,
but about not committing an incestrous act no matter who where and when?

c'est ša non??? that is what it is all about oder?

But why should the law cover consenting adults, as well as child abuse cases? There's no necessary link between the two, one is definitely wrong and the other is none of my business.

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:51

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Perhaps they are choosing to have children. Isn't that their right?

So because some people are irresponsible, everyone should have their rights restricted?

Perhaps we'd be better just sterilising all stupid people?
Umm, this is a whole other argument ... and one that is not relevant to this thread. I believe I already understand your feelings on the subject, given your preferring to live in Switzerland ... but, since you asked, I believe that many young women get pregnant either because they are ignorant, or wish to take advantage of the British benefits' system. But, as I said, not particularly relevant here.

In addition, I think that a lot of laws are instigated in order to cope with the irresponsibility of a minority; sometimes to the detriment of the majority. My belief is that this is not the case in terms of incest though.

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:52

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastro Gnome (Post 1042004)
But why should the law cover consenting adults, as well as child abuse cases? There's no necessary link between the two, one is definitely wrong and the other is none of my business.

Not in that order, one would hope.

Guest 11.12.2010 19:53

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042005)
I believe I already understand your feelings on the subject, given your preferring to live in Switzerland ...

Oh yes? Please do elaborate... :)

Upthehatters2008 11.12.2010 19:53

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Er... child molestation laws. As I understand it, the age of consent in Switzerland is somewhat higher than 11 years.
...having just read that Switzerland has one of the lowest ages of criminal responsibility, at 7, my arguments are starting to wane...

11.12.2010 19:55

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolaschulz (Post 1042005)
I believe I already understand your feelings on the subject, given your preferring to live in Switzerland

Aww Nicola, you've only just returned from a banning and already you're descending down the ad hominem spiral...see you again in the Spring?

NSchulzi 11.12.2010 19:56

Re: Bundesrat wants to remove incest law
 
Quote:

Oh yes? Please do elaborate... :)
Not least your Brummy thingy - but there have been other things that I have picked up on the past that would certainly point to a certain disdain with regards to the UK.


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:04.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0