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  #201  
Old 20.12.2010, 17:48
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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I stay as long as I have something to learn from the Masters. You have a new fan, that's a good thing for you. I've just learnt that Stalin and Hitler actually were good political friends and that their war obviously was not for real as far-left meeting far-right would not end up in a conflict but in a wonderful garden party.
Ok, this will sound douche, but did you really just learn this? Isn't it a fact known for...like 20years? They had a pack, you did know, right? Totalitarianism is one, does not matter if left or right. Same ol shtick.
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  #202  
Old 20.12.2010, 17:48
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

If only you had an idea how Blocher and co couldn't care less what we all think and say here - the only goal of the public declarations are to continue what he has done without interruption since the very beginning of his political activities. If you have enough memory, you'll know what that mean. Otherwise, just wait and you will learn this time around.
SVP/UDC/PPS wants to be the largest party in the country in next elections - Blocher plans to get back to federal council with three non-Widmer Schlumpf councelors of his party. How do you think one gets the Swiss voters to choose this party rather than another one? Well, do the same as Blocher: check what worked before and redo it in a new packaging.

SVP/UDC/PPS public declaration have three topics:
1. language and culture: CH is different, even Germans don't speak the right kind of German, language test before arrival, defending Swiss gruyère against French producers...
2. criminality and security: CH ethnics are crimeless, mafia, racaille in Geneva, foreigners city criminality, crime rates, Ivan...
3. social benefit fraud: CH citizen pay, foreigners steal and lie, houses in Kosovo...

Now take Blocher's agenda and follow his deeds and words: he takes turns shouting about these three topics. It's a rota system. It's been going on for almost 15 years. So what is to be discussed here? Certainly not what I am reading. The remark about demining the bilateral agreement was however an interesting one.
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  #203  
Old 20.12.2010, 18:18
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

Well if they ask foreigners to make those tests, why not make the Swiss in the Swiss-german part of the country to make a German test as well?

For many, Hochdeutsch is also a foreign language, as far as I can judge.

It is a bit awkward to expect foreigners to be proficient in German whereas the local population has a hard time speaking it properly, even more writing.
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  #204  
Old 20.12.2010, 18:19
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

I loathe the aims of the SVP/UDC - I think I made that clear before. And I truly believe that multiculturalism is enriching for all. I lived and taught in Leicester for a long time - and I know a good curry (or 2). I agree that it is ludicrous to give prospective immigrant written, or even oral tests, before coming to live/work here. I agree totally that different people are entitled to keep their culture and language when living abroad, and that it is to the benefit of all. I also believe that if you choose to live in another country, you also have responsibilities- to try and understand how your chosen new country 'ticks' and to learn to communicate at basic level. In an ideal world, people should understand how important this is to encourage understanding and prevent possible resentment from some. How some cannot understand this is beyond me. We speak English at home, of course, but have the courtesy to speak French when in company, again as a matter of respect. Musicchick, I can assure you that if I ever go and live in the Czech Republic, I would learn Czech, however difficult it is. A beautiful country- Bohemia is very much like the Jura.

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  #205  
Old 20.12.2010, 19:18
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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I see... so left is right and right is left. That's impressive. You should tell the NPD and Blocher about it, they don't seem to know that.
Phos is right on this. Very often the extremes tend to look very similar in approach and thinking. This is valid for religious extremists as well as political extremists. As a matter of fact a lot of the "ouvrier" who used to vote communist (or trotskist) in France are voting Front National of Le Pen. There are also many "transfuges" from extreme-left to extreme-right.
A recent anti-islamic rallye in Paris (last week-end) was held by extreme-right group (Bloc Identitaire) and exteme-left (Riposte Laique). The presence of Oskar Freysinger was saluted by an ovation.
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  #206  
Old 20.12.2010, 19:33
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

I would just like to see the number of Swiss people passing that test!
Wonder what the success rate would be.
Our mastery ( I am Swiss) of the language is sometimes doubtful, honestly !! ;-(
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  #207  
Old 20.12.2010, 20:03
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

This is the perfect topic for the SVP. It's their usual makes-no-difference-but-gets-the-voters-out policy but in the unlikely event this would get passed then they've made themselves their next topic which would be the inevitable greater influx of Germans
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  #208  
Old 20.12.2010, 21:21
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Phos is right on this. Very often the extremes tend to look very similar in approach and thinking. This is valid for religious extremists as well as political extremists. As a matter of fact a lot of the "ouvrier" who used to vote communist (or trotskist) in France are voting Front National of Le Pen. There are also many "transfuges" from extreme-left to extreme-right.
A recent anti-islamic rallye in Paris (last week-end) was held by extreme-right group (Bloc Identitaire) and exteme-left (Riposte Laique). The presence of Oskar Freysinger was saluted by an ovation.
OK, I think totalitarism is totalitarism, no matter if it gets called left or right. It boils down to the same strategies, just different semantics.

Odile, you are too nice. I am sure you would since you have love for languages. But I am not mad at friends and people I have played with that they didn't speak it after a decade or two of being in Praha, it is just too hard. And jezevec is a nice word. Krtek too, I don't know why they renamed him Max here .

I think Swiss think everyone is good at languages and everyone can pick it up just like that, since they pretty much have to. But, the reality is, the world outside of this little land is not as linguisticaly skilled. So to expect from people to excell just like Swiss do not real, and I really think they are no. 1 in languages due to the historical linguistic policies. People would benefit, but some would be too punished, me thinks. I am also a Czech teacher so I would love people to know my mother tongue. But because I know how terribly difficult it is, it does not surprise me that unless you get married there and have a family, you pretty much don't achieve anywhere near fluency.
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  #209  
Old 20.12.2010, 21:28
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

Agreed. As said, I'm not talking about fluency and grammatical perfection here - just basic communication. My OH only failed one exam in his life, and it was French O'Level. He is a scientist, has no talent for languages- but he is making an effort, as said before, out of simple courtesy and respect. Just common sense. I hosted so many post grads and very senior staff from the Science Faculty from Praha and Ceske Budjevitze (spelling?? sorry) and have visited many times - they all spoke excellent English of course. A great country. Have a great Christmas.
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  #210  
Old 30.12.2010, 13:44
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

Not a bad thing, but if I had to prove my ability to speak one of the four national languages prior to departure for CH, I'd utterly fail. Nothing can provide lessons in fluency better than immersion.

Ironically, as somone else pointed out, many of the "undesirable types" speak French as a native language. (Thanks, Imperial France!)

But how would CH feel if I, as an intended immigrant, showed up at the embassy, intending to reside in Zürich, and tried to pass my language test in Italian?

Or what if I showed up speaking Hochdeutsch instead of Schweizerdütsch?

But give me 2-5 years of immersion, and I will learn a LOT more.

French? forget it. Too many missing letters.
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  #211  
Old 30.12.2010, 15:36
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

Blocher (and his minions) should be expelled and stripped of Swiss nationality for flagrant lack of integration in the social reality of the 21st century Switzerland.


I'm Swiss, and I'm sick and tired of the SVP and it's views from the middle ages!
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  #212  
Old 30.12.2010, 16:54
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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These tests exist for German in Goethe Institutes and for French in the network of centres culturels. That covers the basic needs, Switzerland itself would have little to do for it.
So they'd be testing in Standard German as an integration test? I'm learning German (doing a B1+ course now) and I don't feel integrated at all!
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  #213  
Old 30.12.2010, 17:02
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Because it's a myth that the political (not economic) right and left are far apart. Indeed if you go far enough to the left and right, they'll meet. That's why the Nazi party was National Socialism.
It's a bit more complex than that. Generally if you want to enact extremist policies it helps if you don't have democratic checks and balances. Nazism and Soviet Marxist-Leninism are united by totalitarianism rather than by a set of values, e.g. Nazis favoured traditional roles for women, the Soviets promoted the idea of equality.
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  #214  
Old 30.12.2010, 17:26
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Not a bad thing, but if I had to prove my ability to speak one of the four national languages prior to departure for CH, I'd utterly fail. Nothing can provide lessons in fluency better than immersion.

Ironically, as somone else pointed out, many of the "undesirable types" speak French as a native language. (Thanks, Imperial France!)

But how would CH feel if I, as an intended immigrant, showed up at the embassy, intending to reside in Zürich, and tried to pass my language test in Italian?

Or what if I showed up speaking Hochdeutsch instead of Schweizerdütsch?

But give me 2-5 years of immersion, and I will learn a LOT more.

French? forget it. Too many missing letters.
About "Or what if I showed up speaking Hochdeutsch instead of Schweizerdütsch? "

Then you will be fine; Hochdeutsch is an official Swiss language, Schweizerdütsch is not".

I do not see anybody doing Schweizerdütsch language tests; there are at least 40 different versions & it is a spoken language not written. Far too complicated to test

Last edited by marton; 30.12.2010 at 17:27. Reason: spelling
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Old 30.12.2010, 17:45
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Not a bad thing, but if I had to prove my ability to speak one of the four national languages prior to departure for CH, I'd utterly fail. Nothing can provide lessons in fluency better than immersion.

Ironically, as somone else pointed out, many of the "undesirable types" speak French as a native language. (Thanks, Imperial France!)

But how would CH feel if I, as an intended immigrant, showed up at the embassy, intending to reside in Zürich, and tried to pass my language test in Italian?

Or what if I showed up speaking Hochdeutsch instead of Schweizerdütsch?

But give me 2-5 years of immersion, and I will learn a LOT more.

French? forget it. Too many missing letters.

Just RELAX. The industry-leaders are in absolute protest about his proposal. And it already is clear that he cannot even count on a full support from his own party. If he really launches an initiative, there will be real action against which will succeed. His party however would like to get 30% of the seats in either house of the Federal Parliament in autumn 11 and so they develop into absolute attention-whores .

The FDP meanwhile has reorganized for the election-campaign and "taken back" party-leader Mr Pelli and already given top roles to their Bundesräte Messrs Schneider-Ammann and Burkhalter. The SP, under the formal leadership of Mr Levrat and under the increasingly defacto leadership of Mr Wermuth is driving to the left, with Mr Wermuth arguing that they have to offer REAL alternatives, and that they should be on course within half a year. Interesting will be to see how the "Social-Catholics" (CVP) will go ahead, and of course also what things will be for the BDP.
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  #216  
Old 30.12.2010, 17:48
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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About "Or what if I showed up speaking Hochdeutsch instead of Schweizerdütsch? "

Then you will be fine; Hochdeutsch is an official Swiss language, Schweizerdütsch is not".

I do not see anybody doing Schweizerdütsch language tests; there are at least 40 different versions & it is a spoken language not written. Far too complicated to test
The Swiss-German dialects are dialectS and not a language or languages
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Old 30.12.2010, 20:02
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

SVP language test (Deutsch):

Was ist Ihre Hautfarbe? - Weiß/anderen
Ihren Namen hat die mit "ich"? - Ja / nein
Sie bauen Minarette? - Ja / nein
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Old 30.12.2010, 20:15
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

Speaking from the viewpoint of a non-D/F/I speaking person living in CH and working for a large multinational firm who employs legions of "expats" and imported talent, it would be a huge strain on the firm if this rule was introduced. Frankly there is a shortage of suitably skilled/inclined Swiss people wanting to do these highly paid jobs. There are many Germans and to a lesser extent French/Italians working here, but to put a barrier up to English-speakers would be a real problem. Today's globally mobile 'top talent' comes from UK/US/EU, but tomorrow's will be Indian I think, at least in IT. It's already cheaper to move them to Singapore or other asian countries, but there are reasons for having people in CH, and it must help the country as a whole.

As if Switzerland's job market isn't already feeling the bite of off-shoring, this will only add to the problem.


Of course, Indian people, even highly educated/skilled ones, are not likely to be high on SVP's exceptions list.
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  #219  
Old 30.12.2010, 20:52
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

i guess they do not want immigrants around here anymore...i wonder how life would be here without "immigrants"?? i mean, c'mon people, we made and we are making switzerland what it is today!!!maybe everything is not so beautiful, but at least we tried our best...among white sheep there will always be some black, but that doesnt mean that we all are bad!!!
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  #220  
Old 30.12.2010, 21:01
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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SVP language test (Deutsch):
Ihren Namen hat die mit "ich"? - Ja / nein
Wie bitte?

Wem sein ist das Rad vor Tür? ... Ich!
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