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  #221  
Old 30.12.2010, 21:19
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

When are we and especially the other Swiss political parties going to stop letting the SVP decide the agenda here?

This kind of suggestion cannot stand up to any kind of reasonable argument, it is purely designed to pander to the fears of Swiss citizens about which direction their country is taking, instead of having a sensible debate about what needs to be done to keep Switzerland's current standard of living.

The other parties could start by exposing the holes in pages 45-47 of the SVP Programme on Education, which reads more like something out of a Victorian Workhouse manifesto than a commitment to build a skilled workforce ready to take Switzerland beyond the next decade.

It's time for the other 70% of the Swiss population to stop being so naive about this party, it really is.
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  #222  
Old 30.12.2010, 21:40
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Wie bitte?

Wem sein ist das Rad vor Tür? ... Ich!
Evidently with my addiction to Google translate I wouldn't pass their test
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  #223  
Old 30.12.2010, 23:01
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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When are we and especially the other Swiss political parties going to stop letting the SVP decide the agenda here?

This kind of suggestion cannot stand up to any kind of reasonable argument, it is purely designed to pander to the fears of Swiss citizens about which direction their country is taking, instead of having a sensible debate about what needs to be done to keep Switzerland's current standard of living.

The other parties could start by exposing the holes in pages 45-47 of the SVP Programme on Education, which reads more like something out of a Victorian Workhouse manifesto than a commitment to build a skilled workforce ready to take Switzerland beyond the next decade.

It's time for the other 70% of the Swiss population to stop being so naive about this party, it really is.

No, there is no reason why the other parties should bother about the SVP program. To bother about that program would be "following the SVP agenda". For no reason at all.

As Mr Wermuth of the "young SP" says, they have to provide the alternative. And as I said, the FDP has NOT to look at the SVP program, but quite rightly shifted the emphasis from boring Mr Pelli to Messrs Burkhalter and Schneider-Ammann. The weakness of the CVP is that this party has not much more than the charm of Mr Leuthard to offer.

Now, the "Abzocker-Initiative" is setting the pace, and not the SVP party program. In short, the SVP is NOT deciding the agenda, not at all.
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  #224  
Old 31.12.2010, 00:27
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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No, there is no reason why the other parties should bother about the SVP program. To bother about that program would be "following the SVP agenda". For no reason at all.

As Mr Wermuth of the "young SP" says, they have to provide the alternative. And as I said, the FDP has NOT to look at the SVP program, but quite rightly shifted the emphasis from boring Mr Pelli to Messrs Burkhalter and Schneider-Ammann. The weakness of the CVP is that this party has not much more than the charm of Mr Leuthard to offer.
Actually, you said the same as I did in different words.

Mr. Leuthard ?

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Now, the "Abzocker-Initiative" is setting the pace, and not the SVP party program. In short, the SVP is NOT deciding the agenda, not at all.
A piece of legislation about some top managers in blue chip companies is hardly a broad agenda looking at the issues which affect the average Swiss is it?
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  #225  
Old 31.12.2010, 15:25
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Actually, you said the same as I did in different words.

Mr. Leuthard ?



A piece of legislation about some top managers in blue chip companies is hardly a broad agenda looking at the issues which affect the average Swiss is it?
A) Mrs L. indeed

B) I do not think that the SVP dictates the agenda. But a 25 to 30 % party of course has some influence onto the discussions.

C) I am clearly against other parties and other persons looking into programs of the SVP. The programs of the SVP are entirely their affair, other parties have to take due care of their own programs. I mean, if the smile of the Federal Traffic Minister is already the full electioneering program of the "Social Conservative Catholics" then this is a bit meagre

D) The Abzocker-Initiative is not an "agenda" of anybody but is of heavy interest for the average Swiss. The excesses in that regard have been a leading topic in all the media. The scandal that one of the two leading banks first only survived thanks to Federal aid, and that the second one only survived thanks to an investment from Kuwait BUT that both paid out heavy "boni" to its leading employees, that the salaries of the directors of major companies in Switzerland have quadrupled within a few years has been and in a way still is a major topic. Interesting is that the SVP now has joined the SP in support of this initiative, but herein it is the SP which "dictates the agenda". This matter is far far far more important than the fate of some criminals from former Yugoslavia. As it really matters for all people.

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  #226  
Old 31.12.2010, 15:34
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Evidently with my addiction to Google translate I wouldn't pass their test
Ich habe Bing Translator gern. Es ist ganz Toll!
(I like Bing Translator. It's very good!)
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  #227  
Old 31.12.2010, 17:45
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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I think that foreigners should be required to learn the language. It is not a bad idea.
I completely agree. I think this is also for your own benefit as a foreigner in this country.
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  #228  
Old 31.12.2010, 20:41
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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I completely agree. I think this is also for your own benefit as a foreigner in this country.
Why do we have to force people to do what is for their own benefit?
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  #229  
Old 31.12.2010, 21:32
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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As long as I'm law abiding, pay my taxes and have a job the Swiss shouldn't care what language I speak.

Sure I can order food in French, ask someone where the train station is or ask how someone is. But I will be damned if I will be made to take a written test to live in this country.

I have far more important things to be getting on with than taking a French test to prove my worth to Switzerland.
I may be joining the party rather late. I am very much in the "One should learn the native language if living in the country for a while (1+ years?)" camp myself, but I sympathise with the above view.

At the end of the day, those who're in the country temporarily still pay the taxes. If these do not cover their contribution to the degradation in infrastructure/overpopulation etc, then they need to be raise. Cutting them off due to language in a country with a mass expat community seems a few decades too late.
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  #230  
Old 31.12.2010, 22:13
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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My better point really is that I dislike integration. There are really good reasons to have all sorts of immigrants beyond the economic considerations. Immigrants enrich all of our lives. Perhaps one day we'll be able to get a curry in Zurich that doesn't taste like a sausage roll, or a kebab that doesn't taste like a sausage roll or a....

Or just make everyone who lives here conform to an anachronistic stereotype of what it means to be "Swiss" lord help us.
I see your point, but you can get into the situation where first you get good Kebabs and then some areas are allowed to follow Sharia law.

Its difficult to effectively filter what innovation from immigration you want to keep and what to discard.
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  #231  
Old 01.01.2011, 01:40
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

For the sake of argument, let's leave my country out of the discussion for purposes of comparison. In France, children born of people born in France have the right to citizenship, and it's a lot easier for newcomers to learn the language and become naturalized French citizens. Are naturalized Frenchmen as "integrated" into French society as well as Switzerland demands that newcomers must be if they want to become Swiss citizens? Is France suffering because of this?

In other words, might Switzerland's real problem really be not that there are too many foreigners living there but that it is more difficult than it has to be for foreigners to become Swiss?
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  #232  
Old 01.01.2011, 10:44
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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I think that foreigners should be required to learn the language. It is not a bad idea.
Comical situation though; if it is a requirement to learn the language then to prove you learnt the language you should take a test & get a certificate.
But if you live in the German part then the only recognised tests are for Hoch Deutsch whereas all the Swiss speak Swiss German.
So foreigners finish up learning another foreign language.
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  #233  
Old 01.01.2011, 12:19
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Comical situation though; if it is a requirement to learn the language then to prove you learnt the language you should take a test & get a certificate.
But if you live in the German part then the only recognised tests are for Hoch Deutsch whereas all the Swiss speak Swiss German.
So foreigners finish up learning another foreign language.
All the German-speaking Swiss write High-German, and so do the Vorarlberger, the Bavarians and the Baden-Württemberger. More complex is the situation in the Elsass/Alsace where people write French and in "official functions" also speak French but in more private functions speak Elsässisch-Deutsch, while generally being able to write and speak High-German. There are not various German languages, but a rich variety of German dialects. The situation can be compared to the Arab World where they all write High-Arabic and are supposed to speak the same language, which is not exactly the case. Back to Switzerland, you are expected to realize that Chüngel, Kaninchen and Kaninschen are the same animals

So, a foreigner who learns High-German plus the Swiss dialects of Schaffhausen, Uri, Bern and Wallis does NOT learn five languages but only ONE language and while most share the expression for "there is a draught in here" with High German es zieht (pronounced in CH "äs zi'ät") , in Schaffhausen it is es luftet (pronounced "äs luftet").
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  #234  
Old 01.01.2011, 19:16
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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The Swiss-German dialects are dialectS and not a language or languages
According to this Wiki page:

Wikipedia reference-linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect

Language varieties are referred to as dialects:
  • because they have no standard or codified form,
  • because the speakers of the given language do not have a state of their own,
  • because they are rarely or never used in writing (outside reported speech)
  • or because they lack prestige with respect to some other, often standardised, variety.
I have to say I like the last of those the best when discussing Swiss German.

Cheers,
Nick
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  #235  
Old 01.01.2011, 19:48
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

Interestingly, this article in Blick indicates that top-brass of large companies like ABB, Novartis etc are not happy about such a proposal.

It's one thing to encourage foreigners to learn the local lingo - but the idea of legal compulsion with penalties if you fail to pass some exam I find troubling.

Moving to a new country is stressful enough without such obstacles being put in ones way.

As others have pointed out, this is more about the SVP stirring the porridge . I just wonder what Blocher's real agenda is (other than getting back into the Bundesrat). What does he have to hide?

Cheers,
Nick
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  #236  
Old 01.01.2011, 23:23
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Interestingly, this article in Blick indicates that top-brass of large companies like ABB, Novartis etc are not happy about such a proposal.

It's one thing to encourage foreigners to learn the local lingo - but the idea of legal compulsion with penalties if you fail to pass some exam I find troubling.

Moving to a new country is stressful enough without such obstacles being put in ones way.

As others have pointed out, this is more about the SVP stirring the porridge . I just wonder what Blocher's real agenda is (other than getting back into the Bundesrat). What does he have to hide?

Cheers,
Nick
He has one major objective and that is his party to land up at around 30% in autumn 11 and to see the party of Mrs Widmer-Schlumpf to stay below 10% or even below 5%. He in such a case can if he really wants, go ahead with a return into the Bundesrat to succeed his arch-enemy. Not least as none of the other parties got really happy with the lady.
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  #237  
Old 02.01.2011, 00:15
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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This one could solve a number of problems, according to Blocher: 'We would have fewer school problems, fewer criminals, fewer sans-paiers, less integration problems and the social system would be under less stress. "

And fewer highly skilled immigrants keeping the economy running.
Yeah because all the immigrants got here the economy was complete shit... uh... wait...
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  #238  
Old 02.01.2011, 04:27
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

This is going to be marvelous for all those in the French speaking former colonies- it will inject much needed fresh blood, flushing the Swiss system.
Think of all the wonderful mixtures of nationalities that will be encouraged to apply' for example Moroccan, Caribbean, Algerian etc.

I am also sure that for many in South America it will be easy to get to grips with basic Italian, so perhaps Switzerland can expect Mexican, Colombians etc. applying. I have heard that German is easy to learn for those who speak Afrikaans.

It's a Blocher brainwave! Language is a great leveler- does the test also apply to refugees?

I mean- look, listening to the clip below, I really don't see a problem do you?


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  #239  
Old 02.01.2011, 04:50
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Damit könne man eine ganze Reihe von Problemen lösen, so Blocher: «Wir hätten weniger Schulprobleme, weniger Kriminelle, weniger Papierlose, weniger Integrationsprobleme und das Sozialsystem würde weniger belastet.»
http://www.20min.ch/news/schweiz/sto...ehmen-27046196



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Miss Schweiz's hometown was the first to introduce the tests in 2004.

So here is a wonderful tale of assimilation success.

Quote:
The small town of Ostermundigen will later this week become the first in Switzerland to introduce written language tests for people applying for Swiss citizenship.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3407195.stm

In the Phillippines Miss Switzerland enjoys a chaotic Christmas on the streets whereas in Kanton Bern the Kuster family has fondue at the table.

Quote:
Auf den Philippinen hingegen geniesse sie "chaotische Weihnachten auf der Strasse", sagt die 23-Jährige gegenüber der "Berner Zeitung". Als Weihnachtsschmaus kommt in Kusters Familie in Ostermundigen Fondue Chinoise auf den Tisch.
Enjoy!

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  #240  
Old 02.01.2011, 06:32
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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All the German-speaking Swiss write High-German, and so do the Vorarlberger, the Bavarians and the Baden-Württemberger. More complex is the situation in the Elsass/Alsace where people write French and in "official functions" also speak French but in more private functions speak Elsässisch-Deutsch, while generally being able to write and speak High-German. There are not various German languages, but a rich variety of German dialects. The situation can be compared to the Arab World where they all write High-Arabic and are supposed to speak the same language, which is not exactly the case. Back to Switzerland, you are expected to realize that Chüngel, Kaninchen and Kaninschen are the same animals

So, a foreigner who learns High-German plus the Swiss dialects of Schaffhausen, Uri, Bern and Wallis does NOT learn five languages but only ONE language and while most share the expression for "there is a draught in here" with High German es zieht (pronounced in CH "äs zi'ät") , in Schaffhausen it is es luftet (pronounced "äs luftet").
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It's one thing to encourage foreigners to learn the local lingo - but the idea of legal compulsion with penalties if you fail to pass some exam I find troubling.
If the exam is WRITTEN, could newcomers just focus their efforts on becoming literate in high German, even if they don't learn much of the spoken language, just to pass the test?
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