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  #261  
Old 03.01.2011, 16:14
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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That I call Karma! Especially for the Frenchies, look how many words we absorbed from French into the English language? now it is our turn to impose ours on them...The tables are turned, they have to learn to live with that for the next hmm shall we say 700 yrs?
Vive la venge(a)nce!
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  #262  
Old 03.01.2011, 16:30
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Vive la venge(a)nce!
et oui mon vieux, la vengeance est un plat qui se mange froid
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  #263  
Old 03.01.2011, 16:59
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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et oui mon vieux, la vengeance est un plat qui se mange froid
Délicieux, mon ami!
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  #264  
Old 03.01.2011, 18:02
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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That I call Karma! Especially for the Frenchies, look how many words we absorbed from French into the English language? now it is our turn to impose ours on them...The tables are turned, they have to learn to live with that for the next hmm shall we say 700 yrs?
Schadenfreude?
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  #265  
Old 03.01.2011, 18:28
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Schadenfreude?
Anglophones only demand justice
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  #266  
Old 03.01.2011, 18:30
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Délicieux, mon ami!
Yum Yum!
Hoppy, I promise you it'll taste just like la galette des rois
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  #267  
Old 03.01.2011, 18:34
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

Languages evolve as cultures integrate, this can put some at a disadvantage. The traditional Swiss who are conservative do not welcome changes to language, especially if the established order works to their advantage. In the end, if they are not able to impose a return to conventional ways, then they lose out. To me, there needs to be a balance between conventional and new, there must be some flexibility and improvisation. Officially the language may stay the same, but unofficially it will change and change produces innovation; which is what societies need in order to move forward.

They can introduce all the laws they want but it will not stop the society evoloving, if a society stops evolving it is doomed.

English has standard and non- standard forms, they feed each other.

Perhaps one day the Swiss teens will develop an equivalent to the language their English peers now have (if they are not already):



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All raait! It’s a new black-white lingo

The team, which included four linguistic experts from Lancaster and from Queen Mary College, University of London, found all the students used the same multi-ethnic dialect, regardless of their background.

The accent was peppered with different influences. The word “face”, for example, was pronounced as the longer “feeece”, which researchers believe is West Indian in origin. When saying “pound” the students reverted to the traditional cockney pronunciation of “paaand”, while instead of “right” they used “raait”, a pronunciation which bears more resemblance to Yorkshire or Lancashire accents than any immigrant varieties.
The vocabulary included words originating from the Indian subcontinent such as “nang”, meaning good, and “creps” for trainers, a word which probably comes from Jamaica, as does “crib” for home and “ends” meaning area. Traditional cockney words such as “manor”, also meaning home, were still in use.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle757184.ece

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  #268  
Old 03.01.2011, 23:04
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Vive la venge(a)nce!
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et oui mon vieux, la vengeance est un plat qui se mange froid
Reads beautiful in French, but that saying is best in the original Klingon!
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  #269  
Old 03.01.2011, 23:17
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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The reason I chose London was in response to your earlier quote- requested by you, that I compare London to the whole of Switzerland.
-
Yes & No. Numerically, you can compare London to all of Switzerland, but in a social context, it does not really work. Except that certain quarters of Zurich, Geneva and Basel have a share of non -Euro immigrants well comparable to many quarters of London


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This springs to mind:


Sure, the film nicely shows the enormous problems with those artificial boring and "empty" outer-cities (Cités Satellite) in the Banlieues of large French cities. It was reported in intelligent newspapers like Libération and LeMonde that the "native" youngsters in these Cités Satellite are not really better off than "the others".




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Every few months in Swissinfo there is an article that will take issue with this few- too many here to list but if you like I will start.
-
Interesting is to see that immigrants from non-Euro countries tend to integrate rather better than those from ex-Yugoslavia. And this means simply that ex-Yugoslavia exported some of its problems. At the other hand, let's be fair. Switzerland needed the workers from Yugoslavia, but people came along and brought their problems with them

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I am not just considering success in financial terms, if so, then yes, I guess that we, as a family, were successful. I consider happiness essential to life, to live in a society as an equal, with mutual respect. Money and mountains and good food can't rectify the daily humiliation of being treated as a second-class citizen.
Personal happiness IS essential. But once again, most immigrants are NOT treated as second-class citizens, at least not in general.




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Some things such as xenophobia in a 'civilized country' often conveniently develop
I've never cared for Thatcher although I wouldn't be surprised to see her as a 'poster-girl' in the SVP offices.
Mrs Thatcher for many years, in regard to her economic wisdoms, was the Icon of the FDP. Her slightly xenophobe leanings however were vastly admired by the SVPler
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  #270  
Old 03.01.2011, 23:28
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Many Swiss are not happy about the tax initiative. Schindler (lift manufacturer?) threatened to leave as this was very un-Swiss. Most Swiss businessmen are anti-EU, anti-competition; which is why they stick to speaking Swiss German whenever possible. You must communicate on their terms.
> Most Swiss businessmen are PRO competition
> Most Swiss public administrators however are anti-competition
> Anti-EU ? You have to realize that the Bilateral way brought the EU integration the businessmen wanted to have. Whatever some EU chaps declare, there right at present is no alternative to the continuation of the Bilaterals
> Most Swiss businessmen do NOT "stick" to speaking Swiss-German but in case it is suitable shift to High-German, English, French and in many cases also other languages. The ability to shift into other languages exactly is the reason for the success of the Swiss businessmen
> However, if a foreigner has some command of the dialect, he/she will become an "insider" relatively easily. And do not forget that many companies in Geneva, Lugano, etc are "under Swiss-German management" which means that the "management-floor" speaks Swiss German. This may not be nice but it is fact
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  #271  
Old 03.01.2011, 23:38
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Anglophones only demand justice
Sure, already in the Kindergarten where they fight for the Lebensraum
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  #272  
Old 03.01.2011, 23:49
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Languages evolve as cultures integrate, this can put some at a disadvantage. The traditional Swiss who are conservative do not welcome changes to language, especially if the established order works to their advantage. In the end, if they are not able to impose a return to conventional ways, then they lose out. To me, there needs to be a balance between conventional and new, there must be some flexibility and improvisation. Officially the language may stay the same, but unofficially it will change and change produces innovation; which is what societies need in order to move forward.

They can introduce all the laws they want but it will not stop the society evoloving, if a society stops evolving it is doomed.

English has standard and non- standard forms, they feed each other.

Perhaps one day the Swiss teens will develop an equivalent to the language their English peers now have (if they are not already):


You should not mix things up. Many otherwise exceedingly traditional folks in Switzerland are very open for changes in regard to language. Imagine that the daughter of Mr Blocher is married to the son of a Lombardia industrialist ! Mr Blocher, in order to speak with that side of his wider family has aquired quite some ability in Italian

Most languages on earth have standard and non-standard forms.

Swiss teens ? Ever listened to how they talk ? Sure, English words are "Helvetized". Just like the verb "Dancing" became a noun here. Just like "City" here is the equivalent to Downtown. French made its inroads into German speaking Switzerland between 1700 and 1910, but English started to do so in the 1940ies, and Italian did so since about 1880.
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  #273  
Old 04.01.2011, 00:05
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Just like the verb "Dancing" became a noun here. Just like "City" here is the equivalent to Downtown. French made its inroads into German speaking Switzerland between 1700 and 1910, but English started to do so in the 1940ies, and Italian did so since about 1880.
I don't know the context of how Swiss using the word "dancing", but that form of a verb can be and is considered a noun. It's called a gerund and the example is in the following sentence:

"Dancing is a beautiful art."

I'm not surprised English has infiltrated Swiss vocabluary. Thanks for the info!
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  #274  
Old 04.01.2011, 00:31
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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I don't know the context of how Swiss using the word "dancing", but that form of a verb can be and is considered a noun. It's called a gerund and the example is in the following sentence:

"Dancing is a beautiful art."

I'm not surprised English has infiltrated Swiss vocabluary. Thanks for the info!
A "Dancing" in Switzerland is a place where people are dancing. Usually a kind of bar-restaurant. And there of course is the owner of the dancing. No, it is not a "Gerund" and has its employees etc.
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  #275  
Old 04.01.2011, 00:55
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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A "Dancing" in Switzerland is a place where people are dancing. Usually a kind of bar-restaurant. And there of course is the owner of the dancing. No, it is not a "Gerund" and has its employees etc.
Wollishofener has an answer to everything very active indeed
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  #276  
Old 04.01.2011, 02:42
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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A "Dancing" And there of course is the owner of the dancing.
The Swiss have owned dancing, one of my greatest pleasure in life has been owned by the Swiss? I am doomed- doomed

I really have to take Wollishoffner for a walk around London, I am sure that his eyes will pop at the mixture of nationalities, more than I have see anywhere else in the world including NY. At the last count there were over 270 nationalities in London. London is linguistically the most diverse capital in the world with over 250 languages. Officially, more than 1/4 of the population is from an alternative ethnic background, in fact I would say that these figures are outdated in the last two years, there has been a massive influx of foreign nationalities into London. Many Poles left but others took their place.

I found it truly chaotic but inspiring, so many different tastes, smells, art, colours, fashion. I asked my family if they did not feel swamped, they said -No- they seem to create their own markets. My brother took me to the new Covent Garden Market- that was a shock, even to me, so many cultures that I had never experienced, but such resourceful and inventive people, they can recycle anything!
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  #277  
Old 04.01.2011, 04:07
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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A "Dancing" in Switzerland is a place where people are dancing. Usually a kind of bar-restaurant. And there of course is the owner of the dancing. No, it is not a "Gerund" and has its employees etc.
I didn't know how the Swiss used "dancing", and you're right---it's not a gerund as in my example, but it is a noun.
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  #278  
Old 04.01.2011, 05:56
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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I didn't know how the Swiss used "dancing", and you're right---it's not a gerund as in my example, but it is a noun.
Are you giving us a head-up on the test? Will the grammatical use of dancing, as defined in Swiss terms, be on the test?
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  #279  
Old 04.01.2011, 10:08
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

I hope this law doesn't pass while I'm here because I would have a hard time passing it, but in fairness it doesn't seem like that radical of an idea to require potenial immigrants to be proficient in one of the official languages. It might have adverse economomic effects in the short term, but that is a secondary issue for proponents of this law I suspect.
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  #280  
Old 04.01.2011, 10:15
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

So it would be bye bye Brady Dougan, who, by the way, flies home to New York EVERY SINGLE WEEKEND. Integrated? I think not.
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