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  #101  
Old 19.12.2010, 22:03
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

I have mixed feelings about this. If the SVP is proposing that all foreign residents become completely fluent in D/F/I within two years of moving to Switzerland, that may be a bit of a stretch for some people, particularly those who speak a different language in their work environment than the Swiss national languages. (In all due fairness, does anybody know on average how well foreigners who have no proficiency in English learn the language after two years of moving to an Anglophone country like the UK or US?) But on the other hand---I don't think it is out of the question to at least require incoming residents to become at least conversationally fluent in the local language. There's no excuse for living in CH and never saying "bitte" or "danke" / "sil vous plais" or "merci" / "per favore" or "grazie."
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  #102  
Old 19.12.2010, 22:12
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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A senior SVP delegate declared today that English folks would of course not need to learn Swiss languages, because they are not the intended audience.
I'll bet other members of the SVP disagree with him. To be honest, I think most people in this forum disagree with him, too, because most people here rightly agree that even if you already know English, you should at least TRY to learn the local language in Switzerland.
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  #103  
Old 19.12.2010, 22:31
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Maybe it's a good thing. The SVP has forced the other parties to stop ignoring the people's worries about foreigners / immigration.
Probably they'll come up with better solutions than the SVP.
«Einwanderung gezielt steuern zum Nutzen der Schweiz.» («Consciously controlling immigration for make benefit glorious nation of Switzerland»), I can get behind that.
What worries me is that FDP have seen how it goes for SVP conducting such a politics, recipe for success?

But as you said, it's good that other parties gets involved in this, I just hope that they won't be as "black & white" as SVP...

As I have written so many times before, the "only" (the best) way to reduce foreign labor is to make sure it's "easier" (promote/encourage) for women to study and work, but since SVP are against that women strives more than 1 meter from the stove I can not see it happening...
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  #104  
Old 19.12.2010, 22:34
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Not very good examples. Most of those, if not all, speak French
my point was, if you are rich enough to move here, would you also have to learn 1 of the 4 languages?
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  #105  
Old 19.12.2010, 22:38
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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What do the foreigner statistics tell us (Aug. 2010):

1) The nationalities with highest immigration rate to switzerland are
- Kosovo, Germany, Portugal, France, Erythrea
Due to bilateral agreement with EU, CH can only target countries like Kosovo and Erythrea (asylum seekers). EU citizens do not need to worry.
The thing is, all my students from Erythrea are top notch educated. All the efficient catholic schools they went to, their family background, history in their homeland made them value education. In fact they end up often at the top of the class. So, I don't know what point SVP is trying to make, yet again. People who actually work with Erythrean refugees will mostly have a different opinion, unless they are xenophobic..Same for a lot of the Kosovars I deal with.

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2) The reasons for legal immigration to Switzerland is mainly due to work permits and family reunification (38% and 32%).
This is another point. It might be an idea to force people learn, how do you check it? Whast are the tests? Written only? That is nonsense to standardize language knowledge that way, anyways. Multiple choice tests? Lotery. So, how does one say, yes this person knows it, this one does not. There aren't enough good language teachers as it is, in my opinion (and pretty up to date research, in fact), so what makes one believe there will be enough professionals to actually do the corrections, unless the tests come with grids, etc. Petrified ways, aren't these.

Another thing, which I actually wanted to comment re. 2), so we have a busy bee hubby who comes here to work in some high end company. His wife, who took care of kids and intends to do so here as well, since there honestly probably won't be much to do for her here anyways, will have to sit some exams to be able to stay? How about the kids? How old will they have to be to prove some kind of A1-C2 knowledge? How about cantons borders? How about natives who do not know their own language well enough?

I am skeptical, but it does not surprise me. I expected it, faster than it came, actually, next will be how dirty foreign cars are (emitions), how imported foreign stuff wrecks the economy here and poisons, etc etc. Blocher should demonstrate how to actually assess somebody's language aptitude, without throwing it at embasies. If somebody wants to test before handing out the red book, fair enough. To actually filter the newcomers, is pretty obviously discriminatory, since they will have to differenciate between nationalities to push this through.
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  #106  
Old 19.12.2010, 22:40
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

This would be a complete non-issue with my playground mum friends.

Ukranian, Albanian, Thai, etc - all marvellously fluent French speakers, because what other choice do they have? They can pretty much never go shopping or get their car serviced and expect to speak their own language. No-one's picking up an international school tab so their kids are being educated in French. So they've learnt, and learnt well.

It's only us lazy, complacent old English speakers who see any problem with this at all.

Of course, because there's no justice in the world, their language expertise is entirely taken for granted whereas my much lesser attempts at conversation are greeted with warm approval and exclamations of how clever I am.
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  #107  
Old 19.12.2010, 22:44
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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forget about it, thats all just cheap populism by Christoph Blocher and the SVP

A senior SVP delegate declared today that English folks would of course not need to learn Swiss languages, because they are not the intended audience.

this whole idea was just for keeping the foreigner-topic hot, it would generate huge resistance from economic syndicates - its just nonsense.
Why would English folks be excluded? (beside that they are in the EU)...
But countries like US and Canada are not so, bad luck for them!

The rule has to apply to all non-EU countries (except Norway and Island) if they want to keep following the bilateral agreements...

I can't wait for the when the whole eastern and south eastern europe joins the EU and Swiss votes YES to it...how fun it will be!
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  #108  
Old 19.12.2010, 22:44
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

I don't think anyone's actually asked the most fundamental question here and that's "why?". Why is it a good thing to learn the language? Why is it a good thing to integrate?
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  #109  
Old 19.12.2010, 22:54
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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I don't think anyone's actually asked the most fundamental question here and that's "why?". Why is it a good thing to learn the language? Why is it a good thing to integrate?
Of course should people living and working here try to learn the language,
and most agree that it is a good thing, but that is not the issue...the issue is that SVP demands that you know the language before you arrive here, which is almost impossible and SVP knows this...
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  #110  
Old 19.12.2010, 22:56
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Of course should people living and working here try to learn the language
but why?............
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  #111  
Old 19.12.2010, 23:00
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

And I don't think this would actually displease syndicates. I think this is proposed to apease them and win their votes. Fewer people in, more work for locals, more cash in this country for the contributors. Why does the monitoring starts when it is too late..Why is the reaction to throwing cash away, so slooooow, it is not fair to anyone. So, people woke up all of a sudden, when all the social money and permits have been already given, and they want to do something about it. Like one can...

I do see the point trying to speed thigns up and push gov to take care of their own people better, but why use innocent newcomers and peeps who rightfully and lawfully obtained help already, to stew some more hate into the nation and use certain nationalities as scape goats, ugh.
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  #112  
Old 19.12.2010, 23:17
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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I don't think anyone's actually asked the most fundamental question here and that's "why?". Why is it a good thing to learn the language? Why is it a good thing to integrate?
it increases significantly the likelihood to find a job, to understand the law, to ease interaction with authorities and therefore diminishes the likelihood of requesting social funding from authorities, violating basic common life rules.
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  #113  
Old 19.12.2010, 23:23
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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but why?............
I can only say from my personal experience,

- Better integration
- You know what is going on (TV / newspapers)
- You will get more respect
- Socializing at work

I do not agree to what Blocher said about that it will lead to less criminal activities, but I do agree to that it will help with the integration. But SVP says that integration is the complete responsibility of the individual coming here, which can't be more wrong...

Btw, I do not see any reasons for not learning the native language. It should be encouraged, unfortunately the education is too poor.
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  #114  
Old 19.12.2010, 23:42
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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it increases significantly the likelihood to find a job, to understand the law, to ease interaction with authorities and therefore diminishes the likelihood of requesting social funding from authorities, violating basic common life rules.
Not for me. Also, not for all those hedge funders who recently relocated from London to Zug.
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  #115  
Old 19.12.2010, 23:49
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

Why NOT?

What makes you so different?
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  #116  
Old 19.12.2010, 23:50
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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I don't think anyone's actually asked the most fundamental question here and that's "why?". Why is it a good thing to learn the language? Why is it a good thing to integrate?
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but why?............

Haven't read the thread, but from personal experience with acquaintances and professional situations, the language issues is not merely the learning of the language itself, but signifies a "willingness" to adapt and conform to local ways of thinking and doing things.
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  #117  
Old 19.12.2010, 23:54
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

Are these proposals not pretty similar to what was announced in the UK recently?

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE6581GR20100609

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Home Secretary Theresa May said being able to speak English was a pre-requisite for anyone wanting to settle in Britain.
My own thoughts on this is that is it somewhat unreasonable for someone to be expected to speak a language before having had the opportunity to live in a country where is spoken.

I could see some merit in making the transition from a L to a B permit dependent on demonstrating a basic knowledge of the one of the 4 languages or at least certified attendance at language course for those with special learning difficulties e.g. dyslexia.

I don't think it would necessarily help with 'integration' issues that Switzerland has however. Much of the difficulty appears, to me, to be with second generation immigrants who have spend their entire lives here yet seem disconnected from 'Swiss' life.
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  #118  
Old 19.12.2010, 23:58
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

Am I the only one to hear very critical comments from Swiss about the English speaking immigrants who do not exactly shine with good will to adress people in the local language? Basel is red, left, open, wordly, chemy-friendly and no idiots when it comes to count together the money they get out of this English speaking activity... and though exactly these people start getting critical. That was not the case five years ago. It almost looks like the SVP campains the last years desinhibited people with critics. They still vote left or even green, but are clearly irritated by the fact that some expats take it for granted that the answer in English will follow. That is a kind of experience of estrangement (that's the translation I've found for "entfremdende Erfahrung"). The Swiss do not have this laid back distance with it like the Dutch in Amsterdam.

But it may be just me making a big thing out of a couple of isolated conversation, I don't know.
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  #119  
Old 20.12.2010, 00:06
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

I actually feel bad for those high earners who spend their days in their English speaking office and helping their kids with their homework in English for their English speaking school. Since they so don't need the local language in the country where everyone speaks all sorts of everything so well...Then they get a private course by a tutor who will most probably don't push them too hard, so how much do they really need the local language and how fast do they learn? But I guess the proposal was not intended towards these, I can't tell.
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  #120  
Old 20.12.2010, 00:13
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Can I sugest an addendum to the proposal???

Language test for any person moving to a new Canton or accepting a job in a different Canton than they live - regardless of Nationality...

ex. Swiss born person raised/lived all his or her life in Zurich, doesn't speak a word of French any more - must do a French language test before being allowed to move to Geneva.

your attendum is lost, ways before anything
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