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  #161  
Old 20.12.2010, 15:46
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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But to expect after 2 years, that people can communicate at a basic level, orally and aurally - would be abso fair enough.
Except the Dutch. I give them two days.
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  #162  
Old 20.12.2010, 15:51
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Whether you are contributing financially to a system or not, even substantially- is irrelevant to the human requirement to show basic respect to the local population, surely.
Thanks for this - if you'd just read my earlier posts you'd know that I dealt with the human requirement already, but let's do it in a little more detail. I don't see moving to a country to work and contribute, both by adding my cultural identity and uniqueness and my other contributions, including creating employment and paying concussive taxes down the employment chain, as necessitating any further levels of respect. The Swiss agree with me. Kanton Zug jumps through hoops to get FDI, slashing taxes and positively discriminating towards a variety of foreign companies and their workers.

If Switzerland no longer wants me here, it is at liberty to write to me and ask me to leave. I would have no problem with that. But then all the EU immigrants leave and Switzerland spirals into nothingness. Oh well.
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  #163  
Old 20.12.2010, 15:53
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

Well yes, I was being very generous, for those who are a bit on the slow side. (many of us thick Swiss took a couple of months to get to grips with English. Some will say the grammar is easy - but phrasal verbs can be a bit daunting. Think to the verb 'to put down' and how many versions you can come up with!).


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  #164  
Old 20.12.2010, 15:57
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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I agree a test beforehand would be totally counterproductive. But to expect after 2 years, that people can communicate at a basic level, orally and aurally - would be abso fair enough.
Let's not forget ideally, that's what most people seem to want. But not everyone can chieve, so to measure and punish those who might not achieve this, for whatever reason would be silly. The reasons might be caring for kids at home, having an intense job, not enough cash for classes (the benevole offered ones I went to suck), uhm...you name it. I understand the requirement, or human requirement as you put it, nobody seems to have a trouble with it, what I have trouble with is a legal way to try to measure unmeasurable, or throw all people in one cathegory, those who don't want to learn (if they don't their biz, really) and those who can't, as enemies of the state.
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  #165  
Old 20.12.2010, 15:59
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

I am not talking about Kanton Zug, the authorities or the Government, or indeed Blocher, the UDC/SVP - I am talking about respect to your neighbours and your community. Somehow, I don't think I'll get through to you - as I can't reach so high, right up there to the top of your financial Pedestal.
So have a Merry Christmas and a Very Happy New Year.
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  #166  
Old 20.12.2010, 16:04
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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I am not talking about Kanton Zug, the authorities or the Government, or indeed Blocher, the UDC/SVP - I am talking about respect to your neighbours and your community. Somehow, I don't think I'll get through to you - as I can't reach so high, right up there to the top of your financial Pedestal.
So have a Merry Christmas and a Very Happy New Year.
I find it amusing that I am trying to have a logical discussion here and you resort to "reverse" condescension in practically every post. I don't know what you mean by a community (maybe in the Swiss legal sense of Commune) but I don't live in a community. I have a family, an apartment, and a place of work. That's all. I live in central Zurich where everyone speaks pretty good English. I don't feel like I walk around offending people with my lack of German - in fact most people are blissfully happy to have the opportunity to practice their English.

More than that, being a "net contributor" doesn't have much to do with wealth. It's just paying in more taxes than you're taking out. Most (almost all) EU-15 immigrants fall into this category. But doesn't it stand to reason that if you make it hard in any way for immigrants to come to the country, the ones who have a choice will choose a different country to move to, and those are the ones Switzerland really wants to attract in the first place.
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  #167  
Old 20.12.2010, 16:14
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

Oh sorry I did not realise you don't talk to your neighbours, don't shop, don't go out for meals, etc. If you live in splendid isolation, then I suppose that is just fine. I sincerely hope you enjoy your time in Switzerland but feel it is a pity you won't get to know any of us native peasants. Is money and a job the only reason for going to live abroad? You are missing a lot I feel - but realise you won't agree. Over and out.
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  #168  
Old 20.12.2010, 16:19
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Oh sorry I did not realise you don't talk to your neighbours, don't shop, don't go out for meals, etc. If you live in splendid isolation, then I suppose that is just fine. I sincerely hope you enjoy your time in Switzerland but feel it is a pity you won't get to know any of us native peasants.
My neighbours are lovely and from Chicago, and we get by with only moderate Mundart thank goodness. Everyone who works in my local Migros is Italian, but even though my Italian is far better than my German, they insist on speaking English. All the restaurant waiters and waitresses in 8001, 05, 08 etc seem to speak English but then next time I'm in a stube in deepest Schwyz I'll be sure to call you. I don't live in isolation and don't see any need to speak the local language.

But all of this is completely irrelevant. What possibly business is it of the Federal Government if I'm happy, my employer is happy, the businesses that I give money to are happy, and my Kanton is happy?

Doesn't seem very Swiss to me. Oh, and apology accepted.
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  #169  
Old 20.12.2010, 16:19
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Oh sorry I did not realise you don't talk to your neighbours, don't shop, don't go out for meals, etc. If you live in splendid isolation, then I suppose that is just fine. I sincerely hope you enjoy your time in Switzerland but feel it is a pity you won't get to know any of us native peasants.
Why be so personal? And why the mockery? I am sure economisto respeks the people who are worth it. I don't think love and respek for the country comes necessarrily in a black and white package, ie with those really obvious things, like language. It shows in many lot more subtle things, but I am not sure if the culture here is fit for subtleties.. Ok, now I mock, oops. But really. Why this panicky mode? And all the hurt, if you don't learn you don't like us? I think it is a privilege to come from a country with a chipmunk lingo that is just simply way too hard to learn. In any time. I only know 2 people who actually are somewhere close to B2 after good 20 years. So we do not translate love and respek for the country to the language aptitude. Rather into how many Czech beers that person drinks... and if they flirt with (and marry) our wenches.
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  #170  
Old 20.12.2010, 16:26
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Why be so personal? And why the mockery? I am sure economisto respects the people who are worth it.
Actually I respect all the people of Switzerland - I think they're lovely. But coming from London, where there are more immigrants than there are locals (not true but it can seem that way) I can tell you that I don't want them all speaking English. The ones that need to, do but I don't want to be rejecting a talented Gujurati chef because he speaks not a word of English - I want to bend over backwards to keep him knocking out those delicious chana dahls day after day. I want giant Turkish supermarkets like they have in London - they add to the life and feel of a place so much that to stop people coming here because they need to bring the 92 year old grandfather from Canakale and he can't remember his own name never mind learn a new language....well that's just crazy to me.
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  #171  
Old 20.12.2010, 16:36
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Actually I respect all the people of Switzerland - I think they're lovely. But coming from London, where there are more immigrants than there are locals (not true but it can seem that way) I can tell you that I don't want them all speaking English. The ones that need to, do but I don't want to be rejecting a talented Gujurati chef because he speaks not a word of English - I want to bend over backwards to keep him knocking out those delicious chana dahls day after day. I want giant Turkish supermarkets like they have in London - they add to the life and feel of a place so much that to stop people coming here because they need to bring the 92 year old grandfather from Canakale and he can't remember his own name never mind learn a new language....well that's just crazy to me.
Ah, you make me miss diversity, it hurts. Just a place where not everyone's shampoo is from Migros, where people are into culinary joy, where people don't quieten their talk when somebody passes by so he wouldn't hear their imperfect accent or omg the fact they are not speaking in one of the national languages..The push for conformity could kill the spirit. I only like it when driving.
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  #172  
Old 20.12.2010, 16:39
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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... But coming from London, where there are more immigrants than there are locals (not true but it can seem that way) I can tell you that I don't want them all speaking English. ....

Yeah, I find it tragic that some people water down their culture in order to try to fit in. Although learning the local language is nothing but more useful for them.

Switzerland already tries to fit square pegs into round holes. I have less respect for those who will voluntarily sanitize themselves of their own ethnicity in order to please the locals. It strikes me as a gross selling out of one's identity.
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  #173  
Old 20.12.2010, 16:42
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Yeah, I find it tragic that some people water down their culture in order to try to fit in. Although learning the local language is nothing but more useful for them.

Switzerland already tries to fit square pegs into round holes. I have less respect for those who will voluntarily sanitize themselves of their own ethnicity in order to please the locals. It strikes me as a gross selling out of one's identity.
Yeah but definitely the state should offer a free basic course (say 10 hours of classroom time) to all immigrants. It's useful to them. But saying "don't come here without the language" is harmful to all concerned. Now, about the Turkish supermarket...they make the goats cheese on site you know...
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  #174  
Old 20.12.2010, 16:44
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Actually I respect all the people of Switzerland - I think they're lovely.
Liar. this message is too short

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After three years I've found that much like France, Switzerland is best enjoyed in isolation from the locals. "wonderful country, shame about the people" sort of thing.
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  #175  
Old 20.12.2010, 16:48
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Liar. this message is too short
yeah yeah cheeky so and so. Alright, but I don't have a specific problem with the locals, they just keep getting on my case with language and general foreigner hating. And they aren't generally too friendly. And they have toilet flushing and lawn mowing and car washing issues. But other than that they're awesome. Oh, and the far right SVP is a major party with loads of genuine popular support. And everything costs 4 times as much including the fruit which is always rotten by the time it makes it home and....
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  #176  
Old 20.12.2010, 16:49
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Even the Blocher's proposal is not about grammar - at all. Just that you know.
how can you be so sure?...they will probably adept the tests so the quotas are in order...
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  #177  
Old 20.12.2010, 16:52
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Italian IS a Swiss language!

It's crap like this that makes me refuse to speak German!

Tom
Because speaking fluent italian would help you in the german speaking parts...

ciao Tom
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  #178  
Old 20.12.2010, 16:52
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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how can you be so sure?...they will probably adept the tests so the quotas are in order...
yeah. Immediately it'll be a really easy language test but it'll gradually increase in difficulty until there are no more brown people in Switzerland, which is the real aim of the SVP.

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  #179  
Old 20.12.2010, 16:53
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Yeah, I find it tragic that some people water down their culture in order to try to fit in. Although learning the local language is nothing but more useful for them.

Switzerland already tries to fit square pegs into round holes. I have less respect for those who will voluntarily sanitize themselves of their own ethnicity in order to please the locals. It strikes me as a gross selling out of one's identity.
Sometimes they are asked to do so. I have an Italian acquaintance who was asked by some Swiss moms from her child's school not to speake Italian anymore "because she's living now in Switzerland and in the German part." (she's from Southern Italy and it happened some years ago)
How would you feel? Would you "proudly" continue to speak your lingo exposing your child to even more bullying and rudeness or would you just not speak your lingo in public at least? Hard to say, especially when one is not in this position.
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  #180  
Old 20.12.2010, 16:54
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Re: Compulsory language test for intending immigrants is on the cards, says Blocher

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Yeah but definitely the state should offer a free basic course (say 10 hours of classroom time) to all immigrants. It's useful to them. But saying "don't come here without the language" is harmful to all concerned. Now, about the Turkish supermarket...they make the goats cheese on site you know...

Well, God knows someone needs to come here and teach the Swiss how to cook. I would not have survived here had it not been for ethnic markets. Imagine eating nothing but potatoes, sausages, and dairy products day in and day out.

The whole compulsory language requirement is fascist to the core. The truth is, the SVP is afraid people can manage to live here without the involvement of the Swiss. Communities of people speaking the same language strengthens the community. I don't believe the SVP would like to see any sub-cultures flourish and take root in Switzerland. The language requirement issue would effectively break down any ethnic community strongholds.
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