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-   -   Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters] (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/10275-security-creation-initiative-aka-svp-black-sheep-grabbing-hands-posters.html)

Polorise 07.09.2007 13:21

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
one for all the fluent German speakers : SVP Party Forum

:D

Nairda 07.09.2007 20:19

Re: Switzerland: Europe's heart of Darkness?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 101666)
Can someone explain where the idea of deporting familys has come from as there does not appear to be any wording in the actual initiative which would permit this.

The idea has come from the SVP. They have raised this in parliament and their spokesmen say this is their intention.

Nairda 07.09.2007 20:41

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
This IS the security initiative thread :confused:.

[The post preceding this one has since been removed by the poster or a mod]

Nairda 08.09.2007 00:44

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
*PC winge*
Swiss President says election campaign targeting foreigners ignores their contribution to the Swiss economy.
http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/d...97545&rss=true

http://www.swissinfo.org/xobix_media..._8196872_2.jpg

[The post preceding this one complaining about PC winging has since been removed by the poster or a mod]

GVA offline 08.09.2007 01:20

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 101937)
*PC winge*
Swiss President says election campaign targeting foreigners ignores their contribution to the Swiss economy.
http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/d...97545&rss=true

http://www.swissinfo.org/xobix_media..._8196872_2.jpg



all foreigners are "black sheeps" :confused:

foreign criminals are better for the economy than law abiding ones :confused:


:msnsarcastic:


anyways, what's that to do with the subject ? I thought this thread was about freedom of speech ?

are we just posting random links ? sounds fun I'll join : http://www.curling.ca/learn_to_curl/...ling/facts.asp

Nairda 08.09.2007 01:34

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
The answers to your questions are in the article and in this thread, the (note well) "Security Creation Initiative" thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GVA offline (Post 101945)
all foreigners are "black sheeps" :confused:

foreign criminals are better for the economy than law abiding ones :confused:


:msnsarcastic:


anyways, what's that to do with the subject ? I thought this thread was about freedom of speech ?

are we just posting random links ? sounds fun I'll join : http://www.curling.ca/learn_to_curl/...ling/facts.asp


Canadian_dude 08.09.2007 11:56

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
Me I am definetly pro-strict immigration laws??? Why shouldn't I be? I am law abiding, pay taxes, those clowns who commit crimes and are slapped on the wrist... Well the affect the people's perception of ME. I mean go explain to people that Russian is not the same as Albanian and that I did not buy my new car with drug dealing money.

It is a PITA for me to always renew my permit, follow the rules... While somebody brings their behind to Switzerland and just decides they are an asylum seeker... Asylum should be limited to important personalities from countries where they are under real threat of physical violence, not merely economic hardship.

My problem with European immigration in general is that Europe does not separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to letting in immigrants. Why I ask does Europe let in people from an utterly alien culture like the Middle East, when they can be inviting more people from say... South America who are hard working, have similiar culture and do not need to be "integrated" and have smoking hot women. Instead we get Achmed the Goat Herder who doesn't speak a European language, goes into a frenzy whenever he sees a woman that is not 98% covered by a black cloth and does not share our values????? What am I not getting here??????

Look at Canada... We have absolutely TONS of people from the Middle East... and ZERO problems. Why???? Because they are all CHRISTIANS. I am not making a judgement on the merits of Islam vs Xtianity since I am an atheist but our Arabs come already pre-integrated. I had many friends who were Lebanese Xtians or Egyptian Xtians and their families were in the "pipeline" the day they hit Canadian soil. Many actually spoke French from the get go. There was no need to teach them our values since they already shared them. My Egyptian friend was probably one of the most respectfull person towards women I've ever met and my Egyptian French teacher spoke better then most Quebecois.

There needs to be an honest discussions in Europe about immigrants without pushing the issue under the carpet, which why their is such a growth in the far right parties. The issues exist, but the main stream parties ignore them.

chemgoddess 08.09.2007 12:15

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
You really won me over with some of those statements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadian_dude (Post 102017)
My problem with European immigration in general is that Europe does not separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to letting in immigrants. Why I ask does Europe let in people from an utterly alien culture like the Middle East, when they can be inviting more people from say... South America who are hard working, have similiar culture and do not need to be "integrated" and have smoking hot women. Instead we get Achmed the Goat Herder who doesn't speak a European language, goes into a frenzy whenever he sees a woman that is not 98% covered by a black cloth and does not share our values????? What am I not getting here??????


Colonelboris 08.09.2007 12:23

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Candian_dude
and my Egyptian French teacher spoke better then most Quebecois.

Most people speak French better than the Quebecoise, but I digress...

As for Canada only letting in Chritian people from the ME...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10663276/

Unless they were Christian terroists in disguise.

The Laundry Man 08.09.2007 13:55

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadian_dude (Post 102017)
My problem with European immigration in general is that Europe does not separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to letting in immigrants. Why I ask does Europe let in people from an utterly alien culture like the Middle East, when they can be inviting more people from say... South America who are hard working, have similiar culture and do not need to be "integrated" and have smoking hot women. Instead we get Achmed the Goat Herder who doesn't speak a European language, goes into a frenzy whenever he sees a woman that is not 98% covered by a black cloth and does not share our values????? What am I not getting here??????

Perhaps the fact that most European powers got rich off the backs of all these nations, plundered their cultures and societies of their wealth, destroyed, wholly or partly, their right to self-determination and then buggered-off leaving an almighty mess behind, generally speaking that is. History is repeating itself today.......

And what has this got to do with the Swiss? Perhaps the fact that they invested most of their national wealth into the French slave trade, got VERY rich off the back of it and now claim it's nothing to do with them when people from ex-slave nations want to find a better home in the lands that screwed them over in the first place....the swiss have a very convenient cover of 'neutrality' when it comes to answering these questions, their historical 'guilt' is disguised beneath sham morality.

Polorise 08.09.2007 14:21

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
Quote:

Perhaps the fact that they invested most of their national wealth into the French slave trade, got VERY rich off the back of it
very interesting statement & has been mentioned, but not referenced before. Can you reference this ?

Nairda 08.09.2007 16:16

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
One would be hard pressed to find a developed country that was not in some way involved with the slave trade. Equally, there were generally people in said countries who fought for its abolition.

Swiss banks owned as much as a third of the Compagnie des Indes, a French company that held a monopoly over the West African slave trade.

Two books show Switzerland was actively involved in the slave trade.

[Note: Movements and organisations in Switzerland were also active in the fight for the abolition of the slave trade.]

http://www.afrikanet.info/images/sto...geschaefte.jpghttp://www.afrikanet.info/images/sto...warzeweiss.jpg


Related Parliamentary Motions:
5th March 2003 and 19th December 2006.

.

Polorise 08.09.2007 18:41

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 102075)
One would be hard pressed to find a developed country that was not in some way involved with the slave trade or equally people therein who fought for its abolition.

Swiss banks owned as much as a third of the Compagnie des Indes, a French company that held a monopoly over the West African slave trade.

Two books show Switzerland was actively involved in the slave trade.

[Note: Movements and organisations in Switzerland were also active in the fight for the abolition of the slave trade.]


.

Nairda, thanks for that. Need to get to the library now. Also, commendable that you posted the note as well. :)

The Laundry Man 08.09.2007 20:43

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
From Swissinfo 2003
Quote:

As Unesco marks the International Day for the Remembrance of the Slave Trade and its Abolition, history professor Hans Fässler told swissinfo it is time Switzerland faced up to its past.

Being a landlocked country did not stop Switzerland from playing its part in the transatlantic slave trade triangle, linking West Africa, America and Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries.

Swiss banks, for example, owned as much as a third of the Compagnie des Indes, a French company that held a monopoly over the West African slave trade, while trading houses financed and did business with slave traders.

Now that slavery has been internationally recognised as a crime against humanity, Fässler says Switzerland should take a fresh look at its past.

swissinfo: How do you explain the international community’s increasing interest in the African slave trade?
Hans Fässler: These international remembrance days reflect above all the willingness of countries, including Switzerland, to shed light on their past. These days there are many calls for reflection but also for an analysis of the consequences of slavery on today’s world.

We had to wait for the end of the Cold War before nations were ready to re-examine that chapter of history. Beforehand, the subject was completely taboo and those who brought the subject up were considered enemies of the state.

But the repercussions of colonisation and the slave trade are too important to be ignored. So much so that the global conference against racism in Durban in 2001 reopened the debate by recognising the transatlantic slave trade as a crime against humanity.

swissinfo: What concrete steps has Switzerland taken towards shedding some light on this chapter of its history?
H.F.: In the political arena, it’s an issue that still needs to advance.

But in the academic sphere, Switzerland’s role is coming under increasing scrutiny. Basel is trying to organise an international conference on the matter, while a book on Switzerland’s participation in the slave trade will be published shortly.

swissinfo: Why is this issue so important in your opinion?
H.F.: Like all western countries, Switzerland must answer questions over the source of its wealth.

Following the legal cases involving victims of the Nazi and Apartheid regimes, Switzerland must now look at this other chapter of its history.

swissinfo: So, is it a case of waiting for new compensation claims?
H.F.: Certain groups are looking into it. The main countries involved in the African slave trade are asking that western countries recognise their responsibilities.

For my part, I believe that Europe has an obligation to right its wrongs, but how it will do so still has to be decided. It could do so through symbolic acts, such as setting up new channels of cooperation with African countries, or by paying what they’re owed through development aid.

Polorise 08.09.2007 20:45

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Laundry Man (Post 102118)
From Swissinfo 2003

yep, got it above thanks .. :)

Nairda 09.09.2007 00:55

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
Slavery has a legacy, but there were also people who opposed and fought against slavery.
To keep this thread on topic, whilst the SVP's campaign is reprehensible and their spreading fear of foreigners is creating a negative image of Switzerland in many quarters, people need to be reminded that there are plenty of Swiss who are opposed to this campaign.
I was pretty fed up of people waving The Independent at me at work on Friday, but glad I could point them to the words of the Swiss President and show them the many creative re-interpretations people have made of the poster.

Canadian_dude 09.09.2007 11:11

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Laundry Man (Post 102051)
Perhaps the fact that most European powers got rich off the backs of all these nations, plundered their cultures and societies of their wealth, destroyed, wholly or partly, their right to self-determination and then buggered-off leaving an almighty mess behind, generally speaking that is. History is repeating itself today.......

And what has this got to do with the Swiss? Perhaps the fact that they invested most of their national wealth into the French slave trade, got VERY rich off the back of it and now claim it's nothing to do with them when people from ex-slave nations want to find a better home in the lands that screwed them over in the first place....the swiss have a very convenient cover of 'neutrality' when it comes to answering these questions, their historical 'guilt' is disguised beneath sham morality.

Who got rich off the backs of say... Turks????? Or Albanians?????? Most colonies in Afrika were abandoned very quickly after WW2 because except for Belgian Congo they were money pits, in return they got a lot of infrastructure that they still live off. Look, my Gramps was a diplomat in many Afrikan countries during the de-colonization, he told me many stories.

And Afrika was always a mess, we didn't do anything to it that wasn't already going to happen.

Colonelboris 09.09.2007 11:20

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
I think it depends to a degree - some African nations did quite well from the infrastructure left, but then you had others, like the Belgian Congo which were stripped of all wealth and places where the Italians had been where they even ripped up the railway tracks and took them back to Italy when they left, leaving the countries with nothing.

09.09.2007 11:54

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Colonelboris (Post 102202)
I think it depends to a degree - some African nations did quite well from the infrastructure left, but then you had others, like the Belgian Congo which were stripped of all wealth and places where the Italians had been where they even ripped up the railway tracks and took them back to Italy when they left, leaving the countries with nothing.

In comparison, I think the British did a much better job of what they left behind. When Zambia (ex-Northern Rhodesia) received independence in 1964, they were very wealthy indeed, mainly from copper mining. But what had happened by the mid 1980s when I was there, was that the President had grabbed all the money for himself (in 1986 he was in the top 20 richest in the world list).

One criticism which I thought was valid was that the British had put all Zambia's eggs in one basket with the copper industry, so that when the bottom dropped out of the copper market, Zambia went with it. It was a very fertile place, and they should have probably used agriculture as a backup.

Oh, the Swiss connection? The President owned at least one large hotel in Geneva, and it's likely that a lot of his money was here too.

But to get back on topic for this thread, one of the links I came across "upstream" mentioned an SVP poster "Where are we living, Baden or Baghdad?". Can anyone point me to a copy of this?

Verena Scherer 10.09.2007 22:22

Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]
 
http://srg.smartvote.ch/swissinfo/index.php

Has anyone tried this above? If so what did you think of it.

The SWISS REVIEW AUG 2007 did a great 14 page article on the Federal elections. It included a spreadsheet layout of all the main parties with their stand on key issues for easy comparison.

Nice- I like!


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