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  #241  
Old 13.09.2007, 15:48
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

Not sure if this has been posted before, or whether this deserves its own thread, but Switzerland's Federal Commission on Racial Discrimination says the current citizenship system is discriminatory and in many respects racist (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6992670.stm) They suggest that decisions on citizenship should be decided by an elected executive and not by the community, which seems to me very un-Swiss like. Democracy, true democracay, is what makes Switzerland what it is (in my opinion).
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  #242  
Old 13.09.2007, 15:58
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

You know what I think makes Switzerland Democratic? The fact that they have no real president and the fact that 7 people having to agree on things. With the current system you can run the whole gambit of political views, highly conservative to highly liberal but if everybody has to agree to it the ultimate result is always going to be somewhere in the middle.

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Not sure if this has been posted before, or whether this deserves its own thread, but Switzerland's Federal Commission on Racial Discrimination says the current citizenship system is discriminatory and in many respects racist (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6992670.stm) They suggest that decisions on citizenship should be decided by an elected executive and not by the community, which seems to me very un-Swiss like. Democracy, true democracay, is what makes Switzerland what it is (in my opinion).
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  #243  
Old 13.09.2007, 16:02
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Not sure if this has been posted before, or whether this deserves its own thread, but Switzerland's Federal Commission on Racial Discrimination says the current citizenship system is discriminatory and in many respects racist (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6992670.stm) They suggest that decisions on citizenship should be decided by an elected executive and not by the community, which seems to me very un-Swiss like. Democracy, true democracay, is what makes Switzerland what it is (in my opinion).
This has already been posted here.

This report was published last year and is under consideration. See this.
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  #244  
Old 13.09.2007, 19:28
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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The sheep posters seem to be disappearing now, the ones in Baden all seem to have been replaced by posters saying "strengthen Blocher, vote SVP".

so yeah, it's official. we now live in such a profoundly racist society that any mention of a black sheep results in a mass protest to defend black people. the UDC have made their point. well done to all involved.

http://www.genevalunch.com/genevalun...ophe-bloc.html
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  #245  
Old 13.09.2007, 19:30
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

Huh??????

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so yeah, it's official. we now live in such a profoundly racist society that any mention of a black sheep results in a mass protest to defend black people. the UDC have made their point. well done to all involved.

http://www.genevalunch.com/genevalun...ophe-bloc.html
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  #246  
Old 13.09.2007, 21:30
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

I'm guessing that threads have merged

In response to the thread with the posting http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/swissin...81&sid=7605245 Government calls for naturalization changes. I am thoroughly confused.

1.Is Blocher trying to expediate the process or not?

2. Why is this still posted as news on the BBC website? if as BB suggested it harks back to March?
Also please help with the following:

I posted:

How many foreigners does it takes to change a country? None the country must want to change itself!

Is this true? What about colonialization?
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  #247  
Old 13.09.2007, 21:45
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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so yeah, it's official. we now live in such a profoundly racist society that any mention of a black sheep results in a mass protest to defend black people. the UDC have made their point. well done to all involved.

http://www.genevalunch.com/genevalun...ophe-bloc.html
Well, I wouldn't congratulate them, or us, too soon. The SVP entrenched in their views seem to come up with a new ads on the same theme every year. Sadly it's pretty predictable. So I guess that's why racism is probably one of the hottest topics on this forum, with many different views. What I can't understand is, is Blocher for speeding up the naturalization process or not?
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  #248  
Old 13.09.2007, 22:27
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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What I can't understand is, is Blocher for speeding up the naturalization process or not?
As I understand it at the moment the government has called upon the cantons to simplify the naturalisation procedure.

Blocker has criticized the fact that if someone changes cantons the time spent in the first one is not counted -

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But he called on cantonal authorities to take into consideration time already spent in other cantons, saying it was "shocking" that someone who had lived in Switzerland for 12 years but who then moved to another canton would have to wait another five to 12 years before being able to apply for citizenship.

If no harmonisation took place, a federal law would take care of the issue, Blocher said.

The government also called on cantons to simplify their procedures for dealing with various authorities to cut down on duplications.
He seems to be sugesting that if the cantons don't change this then the government will propose measures.
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  #249  
Old 14.09.2007, 00:30
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

Well, what Blocker says seems sensible, and can help speed the process up for those who have switched cantons.
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  #250  
Old 14.09.2007, 01:04
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

According to SwissInfo, Blocher/the SVP also want communes to have the right to put naturalisation applications to the popular vote; and support foreigners who do not learn the language being made to leave the country.
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  #251  
Old 14.09.2007, 01:16
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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But to get back on topic for this thread, one of the links I came across "upstream" mentioned an SVP poster "Where are we living, Baden or Baghdad?". Can anyone point me to a copy of this?
Don't remember that, but do remember the Aarau or Ankara one.

Bizarre really, when Turkey is a secular state and in CH you pay church tax by default .

Last edited by Nairda; 14.09.2007 at 01:17. Reason: found pic
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  #252  
Old 14.09.2007, 05:29
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Don't remember that, but do remember the Aarau or Ankara one.

Bizarre really, when Turkey is a secular state and in CH you pay church tax by default .
If a woman is forced to wear a veil that is unnaceptable, but some women choose to wear it just like nuns choose to wear habits. Why not picture a nun in habit next to a woman in a veil? What's the difference between a belltower or a minaret? Both stick up high and are noisy at certain times. Some of the most beautiful art illustrates a mixture of cultural influences.
The important thing is to inform people and protect their right to choose.
I wonder if they will institute language tests. Also are people more likely to be accepted for naturalization in some areas than others. Would this affect the growth of those areas? If the government intends to fast track specialists through immigration, will they be drawn to set up only in areas where the specialists are more likely to be accepted? What power will local communities have in such fasttrack applications?

Aren't the US and UK considered democratic? I could not imagine a situation in the UK or the US where local communities decided on a persons right to stay or leave.
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  #253  
Old 14.09.2007, 13:16
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Well, what Blocker says seems sensible, and can help speed the process up for those who have switched cantons.
You have to understand how nationality works within the Swiss system. See Wikipedia reference-linkSwiss_nationality_law.

Your canton of origin is ultimately responsible for you so if, for example, in old age you were unable to support yourself financially your canton of origin has to accept the burden.
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  #254  
Old 14.09.2007, 13:41
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

Technically, it's your Heimatort, i.e. your Gemeinde/commune of origin that is responsible, not the Kanton/canton.
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  #255  
Old 14.09.2007, 13:50
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Technically, it's your Heimatort, i.e. your Gemeinde/commune of origin that is responsible, not the Kanton/canton.
Thinking of an English friend who's been here for about 30 years, with Swiss wife and now grown up kids, who would be the responsible authority for him?
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  #256  
Old 14.09.2007, 13:55
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Thinking of an English friend who's been here for about 30 years, with Swiss wife and now grown up kids, who would be the responsible authority for him?
According to Wikipedia

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Spouses acquiring Swiss citizenship by facilitated naturalisation will acquire the citizenship of the community and canton of their Swiss spouse.
When a Swiss woman marries another Swiss then her origin changes to that of her husband.
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  #257  
Old 14.09.2007, 14:54
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/10/switzerland_a_m.php

I think that the above article represents the conservative argument well although from 2004.
As a Swiss I do at times feel privileged, I have the special privilege to retire in one of the most beautiful cantons in Switzerland, at the cost of the canton. Have I ever lived there?- No. So what gives me that right?- my ancestory. While I am often arrogant I hope that this does not extend to bigotry. If it takes a village to raise a child, how can they then reject that child, but accept the right of Auslaender Schweizer simply because of heritage?
Also the reason that Yeslam was accepted but Fatma refused is economical. As a proud Swiss my father would never have allowed his morals to be bought.

Concerning the veil, I can not find the part in the Koran that says a woman must wear the hejab or chador. All I find are certain ambiguous statements about her lowering her eyes, being modest, drawing the veil across her busom and not jangling her attributes to attract attention. That's not the exact wording, but pretty much it. If anyone knows wher it is i would be interested. Some Mullahs have argued that women should not have to wear the veil if they do not wish to. If there is no specific instruction why are Muslim girls allowed to wear the clothing in school that may restrict their taking part in curriculum activities?
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  #258  
Old 14.09.2007, 15:03
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Concerning the veil, I can not find the part in the Koran that says a woman must wear the hejab or chador. All I find are certain ambiguous statements about her lowering her eyes, being modest, drawing the veil across her busom and not jangling her attributes to attract attention. That's not the exact wording, but pretty much it. If anyone knows wher it is i would be interested. Some Mullahs have argued that women should not have to wear the veil if they do not wish to. If there is no specific instruction why are Muslim girls allowed to wear the clothing in school that may restrict their taking part in curriculum activities?
if you have time on your hands .. I have the answer .. 187 posts to wade through & this was covered :http://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-pol...minarette.html
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  #259  
Old 14.09.2007, 15:07
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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According to Wikipedia

When a Swiss woman marries another Swiss then her origin changes to that of her husband.
The naturalised spouse of a Swiss citizens acquires their spouse's place of origin.
However, Swiss citizens may have multiple places of origin as a result of marriage. I'm not clear which would take precedence, I think that is down to personal choice.
To answer JVC, the commune isn't responsible for a non-Swiss if married but not naturalised.
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  #260  
Old 14.09.2007, 16:37
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

Thanks Polorize for that but couldn’t find it. I did get tired of reading, although the arguments were excellent. I did a search under ‘edit’ for the word veil and couldn’t find a statement about the veil.
sorry to bore anyone if I'm going over old ground but:

According to my version of the Koran Surah XXXIV say that women should draw their cloak around them when they go abroad so that they will be recognized and not annoyed. Generally the roots of the veil go back to the time when Christian women were also covering their head, so that it was a cultural rather than religious item of clothing. At certain times women may choose to wear the veil because it gives them anonymity. To me it is a reflection of the trust in the men around them, if a woman’s rights are not protected or privacy invaded or feels sexually threatened then she might choose to cover up.
I did find this on the internet
http://www.muhajabah.com/faceveil.htm#law
http://www.muhajabah.com/faceveil.htm#law
In all of what I've said so far, I've focused only on the dress of women (hijab), and stressed how women should cover what is not necessary to be seen of them. But what about men? Are men to cover what is not necessary to be seen of them too?
The answer is yes, it's just that more is necessary to be seen of men. Remember that men are the ones who do most of the manual labor outdoors. The kind of labor that can get the body wet and dirty. The rules for men's dress must be flexible enough to allow men to uncover what they need to uncover to do this work. That is why the Quran does not mention anything more about men's dress than that men must cover their "private parts" (defined as from navel to knee; a woman's is from the upper chest to the knee.)


We live in equal opportunity times. Women get wet and dirty when they take part in physical activity, so they should be allowed to dress the same as men.
I have seen women in Switzerland in the fields working topless in the summer. Most women do not walk around town topless, not because they wouldn’t be physically more comfortable but because they receive unwelcome attention. So they cover up.
I know many women who consider themselves Muslim who do not wear the veil.
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