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  #341  
Old 01.10.2007, 18:17
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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We were at the Valais Fair on Saturday. A Valais candidate for the PRD went up to our Swiss friends American wife and said quite openly "You're a f-----g foreigner. We don't want you here."
That's a horrible experience.
PRD = FDP = centrist liberals.
I'm surprised their candidate said this. They're the party of business and know that employers need foreigners . What a plonker.
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  #342  
Old 01.10.2007, 21:10
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Blonaybear, I think your head might be in the sand with your constant defence of "the black sheep" as being a commonly used term - yes it is, but surely you're not oblivious to the clear overtones it carries in this context???
I’m not oblivious to the fact that some people see the poster as being racist but I think this is based on their perception not of the poster or of the initiative, but of the political party behind it. It’s the SVP therefore it must be racist. I wonder if another party, who were not perceived as being racist, had produced the same poster if it would have caused the same reaction.

As this thread has developed it’s been interesting to learn the views people have of the SVP the other side of the röstigraben. Here they are know as the UDC and I don’t get the impression that they are regarded as being so extreme.

Quite clearly some people do regard the poster as racist and others don’t. It’s not a matter of fact but one of individual perception. This has been debated in the correspondence section of our local paper since the poster first appeared. Everybody has their own opinion and I don’t suppose it will ever be resolved.


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I caught a bit of one of the French speaking TV shows interviewing Blocher a couple of weeks ago. His justification was that the phrase "black sheep" is common in German, French and English. I'm afraid that my French wasn't up to following the ensuing argument so late at night...
I posted a link to this earlier in the thread. You can find a video of the show here. It's in French and is about an hour long. Some of the discussion was about the poster but most of it was about the initiative itself.

Last edited by Blonaybear; 01.10.2007 at 21:24. Reason: link changed
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  #343  
Old 01.10.2007, 21:23
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

Certainly seemed to be even more graffitti and defacement of the black sheep posters on the Freanch-speaking side when I was there the other week.
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  #344  
Old 01.10.2007, 21:31
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

I knew nothing about the party or its viewpoint when I originally saw the poster. The image of kicking out blacks (sheep) is far more evocative than any policy (deport family of serious criminals) could be. It said all that needed to be said about the party, and/or its policies.

dave


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I’m not oblivious to the fact that some people see the poster as being racist but I think this is based on their perception not of the poster or of the initiative, but of the political party behind it.
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  #345  
Old 01.10.2007, 21:40
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Certainly seemed to be even more graffitti and defacement of the black sheep posters on the Freanch-speaking side when I was there the other week.
Indeed there has been a lot of defacement of posters. The socialist party encouraged youngsters to do this and they duly obliged. Unfortunately for them they did not stop with just the UDC posters and attacked all political parties, including the socialists !
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  #346  
Old 01.10.2007, 21:47
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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I knew nothing about the party or its viewpoint when I originally saw the poster. The image of kicking out blacks (sheep) is far more evocative than any policy (deport family of serious criminals) could be. It said all that needed to be said about the party, and/or its policies.

dave
So, in your mind you automatically associated black sheep with black people and not criminals. The initiative does not call for the deportation of families.
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  #347  
Old 02.10.2007, 01:08
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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So, in your mind you automatically associated black sheep with black people and not criminals. The initiative does not call for the deportation of families.

Maybe the SVP that you know in the Romandie is not racist, but in central Switzerland the party is quite different and xenophobic attitudes are the norm. Many of the people I know in this party, especially some high ranking members, still regard Hitler as one of the heroes of the last century. I am extremely worried about this trend, especially when more than a quarter of the Swiss are prepared to vote for these terrorists.

Why do I use the term terrorist ? Because, as a black sheep, I am terrified.

Many of my posts have been humourous, but this time I am not joking, believe me.

Last edited by tigerli; 02.10.2007 at 01:31.
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  #348  
Old 02.10.2007, 01:51
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Maybe the SVP that you know in the Romandie is not racist, but in central Switzerland the party is quite different and xenophobic attitudes are the norm. Many of the people I know in this party, especially some high ranking members, still regard Hitler as one of the heroes of the last century. I am extremely worried about this trend, especially when more than a quarter of the Swiss are prepared to vote for these terrorists.

Why do I use the term terrorist ? Because, as a black sheep, I am terrified.

Many of my posts have been humourous, but this time I am not joking, believe me.
I totally agree. Myself, my family and my friends (and those include Swiss people) are currently being threatened by a relative of the politician I mentioned earlier. Half of me wants to say "sod it" and leave Valais and the other half wants to hang about and deal with it. As far as we know the only "crime" we've commited vs the nasty little twerp is that I've moved to his beloved country, got a job in the same field (IT) and have a nicer life than he does.

When Switzerland's good.. it's very very good.. but when it comes to things like this, it can be pretty awful.
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  #349  
Old 02.10.2007, 21:03
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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As this thread has developed it’s been interesting to learn the views people have of the SVP the other side of the röstigraben. Here they are know as the UDC and I don’t get the impression that they are regarded as being so extreme.
French speaking Switzerland and the largest cities tend to vote to the left of the rest of the country. You can see this clearly from election and referendum results. Not surprising that the SVP position themselves as the Union of the Democratic Centre in Romandie. Nonetheless, the Guardian still ranks them with Europe's far right parties, such as the NPD, Front Nationale and BNP.

What isn't in doubt is that their electoral success is founded on promoting a fear of foreigners. It's hard to see how their previous campaign poster of black hands grabbing Swiss passports could not be seen as racist. Perhaps they are now a bit wiser and trying to be clever, however everyone know's what they are getting at. Why else the Aarau or Ankara and Baden or Baghdad posters etc as part of this same campaign?
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  #350  
Old 03.10.2007, 07:24
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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French speaking Switzerland and the largest cities tend to vote to the left of the rest of the country. You can see this clearly from election and referendum results. Not surprising that the SVP position themselves as the Union of the Democratic Centre in Romandie. Nonetheless, the Guardian still ranks them with Europe's far right parties, such as the NPD, Front Nationale and BNP.

What isn't in doubt is that their electoral success is founded on promoting a fear of foreigners. It's hard to see how their previous campaign poster of black hands grabbing Swiss passports could not be seen as racist. Perhaps they are now a bit wiser and trying to be clever, however everyone know's what they are getting at. Why else the Aarau or Ankara and Baden or Baghdad posters etc as part of this same campaign?


Once again you're confusing everything. Of course the Guardian will rank the UDC/SVP with the Front National and the BNP. It's the Guardian.

Of course a poster opposing easier access to citizenship for foreigner will have some darker skinned people in it. Many foreogners here are of african and middle eastern origin. So why would you put only white hands ? or are they just not allowed to show foreign people ?

what about the Aarau or Ankara poster ? are they not allowed to oppose the veil on cultural ground ? If a feminist organisation had created the poster what would you say ?

if we follow your reasoning, any anti immigration idea should be banned from political scene. How is that possible in a democratic debate ? and how do you apply it in real life without turning your human rights wonderland into a police state ?
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  #351  
Old 03.10.2007, 11:37
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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if we follow your reasoning, any anti immigration idea should be banned from political scene. How is that possible in a democratic debate ? and how do you apply it in real life without turning your human rights wonderland into a police state ?
Wrong. I think the implication is that any anti-immigration idea using overtly racist imagery should be banned from the political scene.

Besides, this isn't about anti-immigration - it's about the enforced deportation of criminals and their immediate families, instead of the existing system of optional deportation of the criminal.

It seems to me to be intrinsically racist, intrinsically unfair, and entirely unnecessary.

Bear in mind also, the last political party to propose a system of deporting the families of criminals was...?
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  #352  
Old 03.10.2007, 11:51
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Besides, this isn't about anti-immigration - it's about the enforced deportation of criminals and their immediate families, instead of the existing system of optional deportation of the criminal.
Strangely enough, this is what Gordon Brown talked about in his maiden speech at the Labour Conference ... anything to woo the Daily Mail readers, prior to an election ..

Anyhoo, there is going to be an interesting spectacle in Bern this weekend. Blocher is leading an SVP march from the Bear Pits (Bärengraben) up to Parliament Square (Bundesplatz), pretty much right through the Old Town. 10,000 misguided fools are expected to accompany him.
Simultaneously there is an anti-SVP / Racism rally being held at the Münsterplatz, estimated attendance 6,000 (roughly half way up the SVP route). Allegedly a bunch of anarchists & extreme left wingers will be turning up in the usual masks, crash helmets & baseball bats ... should be lively ..
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  #353  
Old 03.10.2007, 11:56
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

"Sippenhaft"
I think is the word you guys are looking for
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  #354  
Old 03.10.2007, 13:11
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

Any good, high, viewpoints we can watch from when it turns into an Eastenders' wedding?
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  #355  
Old 03.10.2007, 13:15
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

One of these perhaps

http://www.123cam.com/live-webcam.ph...dt.ch/livecam/
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  #356  
Old 03.10.2007, 13:43
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Besides, this isn't about anti-immigration - it's about the enforced deportation of criminals and their immediate families, instead of the existing system of optional deportation of the criminal.
I still have trouble understanding where exactly the initiative calls for the deportation of the immediate family. I can't find that in the official initiative text. Is it somehow implied that I don't get it?
Don't get me wrong, I woulnd't vote for this initiative even if there were no 'Sippenhaft'-idea included. I'm just curious where that comes from.

Anyway, I couldn't help but snicker because of the article about the stolen sheep comics Serves them right. It would be hilarious if they get sued over copyright infringement.
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  #357  
Old 03.10.2007, 14:15
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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I still have trouble understanding where exactly the initiative calls for the deportation of the immediate family. I can't find that in the official initiative text. Is it somehow implied that I don't get it?
I haven't seen anything in text there either. I will speculate that the idea behind threatening deportation of families is to persuade families to police their own troublemakers.
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  #358  
Old 03.10.2007, 15:08
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

IIRC it was mentioned in interviews - someone posted it earlier in the thread.
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  #359  
Old 03.10.2007, 15:09
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

I ordered a T-shirt made up in the US wuth the 3 white sheep throwing out a black sheep with the black sheep being Blocher. Everything was written in Schweitzer Deutsch. The T. Shirt didn't arrive and I began to panic, I was really worried. I realised that I might be investigated for racist propaganda, after all those printing it probably wouldn't understand the text, just see the picture. To my relief it finally arrived-very late.
I was just back in E. Switzerland, and I got attacked again by a Swiss, who seemed to think that I should acccept being told what to do. (Sometimes I feel like I have a " hit me" sticker on me) However this time the whole village rallied round and went out of their way to help me and make sure that justice was served without me having to go to the Police. I feel that in this village things had certainly changed since seven years ago. So much so that I am considering moving back. From one of the biggest SVP Buurezmorge villages there are now those that openly critisize racists with Blocher clearly identified. Opinions have also changed in the governmental offices. Concerns about daily village life no longer scapegoat foriegners. There seems to be a lot more diversity amongst Swiss. The Swiss identity no longer necessarily rules out those with e.g. Albanian, or Turk parentage, as people are assessed on their merits and commitment to village society rather than ethnicity. I hope to return in 3 weeks-it was an unexpectadly pleasant homecoming. It's just one village, but clearly one where cultural integration seems to be working well. can't wait to see what the election brings.
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  #360  
Old 03.10.2007, 15:57
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

The sippenhaft angle is explained by a CVP politician here:

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Sie haben Recht, im Initiativtext seht kein Wort von Sippenhaft. Sie ist aber im von der SVP herausgegebenen Argumentarium erwähnt, und zwar aus folgender Ueberlegung. Die in der SVP-Initiative verlangte Ausweisung von Straftätern kennt keine Limite nach unten und glit auch für Jugendliche. Man kann nun nicht gut einen 12jährigen ausweisen und ihn im Heimatland allein seinem Schicksal überlassen. Also müssen die Eltern, wenn sie im Heimatland keine Betreuungsperson finden und das Kind nicht einfach seinem Schicksal überlassen wollen, möglicherweise mitgehen.

Die Initiative hat noch einen weiteren Haken: Das SVP-Argumentarium gibt freimütig zu, dass sie in vielen Fällen gar nicht umsetzbar ist. Es ist nämlich völkerrechtlich nicht gestattet, Menschen in ein Land zurückzuschaffen, wo sie an Leib und Leben bedroht werden. Und diese Länder sind leider auf dieser Erde sehr zahlreich. Diese Initiative kann - wie schon frühere SVP-Initiative - also die hochtrabenden Versprechungen gar nicht halten.
"There is no mention of Sippenhaft in the text of the initiative. However it is mentioned in the argumentarium that was released by the SVP, with the following reasoning. The expulsion as demanded in the SVP initiative knows no age limit and applies to adolescents, too. Now, it is not possible to deport a 12 years old and to abandon him to his fate in his home country alone. Therefor the parents possibly have to go with him if they don't want to abandon him and can't find a guardian in the home country.

There's another catch in the initiative: The SVP argumentarium ingenuously admits that the initiative isn't applicable in many cases. It is not permitted by international law to bring people to a country where their life and limb is threatened. And regrettably these countries are numerous on this planet. This initiative can - like other SVP initiatives already - not keep its overblown promises."
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