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-   -   Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters] (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/10275-security-creation-initiative-aka-svp-black-sheep-grabbing-hands-posters.html)

Blonaybear 24.07.2007 18:06

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by blueshrimp (Post 86470)
By the way,



Have you?

Take a look at the first statement in bold on page 12 of the ausschaffungsinitiative-d.pdf available at:
http://www.typo3start.ch/sites/aussc...itiative-d.pdf

It is pretty scary stuff (I am referring, of course, to the statement that Ausslaender that do not want to integrate should be kicked out!)! Now what, are they going to kick out foreigners who still want to go to their own churches, who speak their own language at home, who criticize Switzerland, because these are signs of "not wanting to integrate"?

While this is not the main point of the initiative, the fact that this is the background thinking /justification for it should raise many red flags to the rational thinker....

Reading the rest of the article, it just reads like a repressive manifesto (take a look, for instance, at p17, where prostitution is considered one crime for which these foreigners should be deported). My german is not that great, but it appears to me that not only "murder", but any kind of homicide is included as well (go back to where I said you run over a kid chasing a soccer ball, please, curiously this is used as an example, but the driver is not any old "foreigner", but a "Manager". Wonder if the veredict as to what constitutes "deportation permissible" homicide would change if the driver were not a manager, but a factory worker) Take a look at the manifesto yourself, and then tell me, whether it still sounds like a good idea.

Yikes.

Itís an established principle that a court interprets the law by what is written in the legislation and nothing else so that a government cannot say what they intended it to mean if there is a dispute. The proposed initiative uses the word murder.

Your example of someone driving a car and and running over a kid would only be murder if it could be proved that the driver deliberately intended to kill the kid, otherwise it would not be murder.

Whatever is said in the supporting document the fact is that it is not part of the initiative itself. You should consider the wording of the initiative itself when making a decision.

(This comment is not part of the Swiss situation but ďÖforeigners who do not integrate should be kicked outĒ would get a lot of support in the UK).

blueshrimp 24.07.2007 18:12

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86505)
Itís an established principle that a court interprets the law by what is written in the legislation and nothing else

Hmm...you must perhaps be one of the lucky few people on this planet who comes from a country where that statement is actually true.

Having lived in several countries where this is not true, you will understand my intrinsic skepticism as to this "established principle"....


Ho hum, anyway, who cares. As a foreigner I don't get to vote on this initiative anyway, so it matters not a whit whether I agree or disagree, think it is despicable or about time, or whatever.

GVA offline 24.07.2007 18:40

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I don't know about german, but the term "black sheep" is commonly used in both french and english to describe a bad guy. It has no racist undertone what so ever. Yet in your outrage you all choose to associate bad guy with black immigrants. There's nothing wrong with the poster, only with people looking at it.

Blonaybear 24.07.2007 18:42

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by blueshrimp (Post 86511)
Hmm...you must perhaps be one of the lucky few people on this planet who comes from a country where that statement is actually true.

Having lived in several countries where this is not true, you will understand my intrinsic skepticism as to this "established principle"....


Ho hum, anyway, who cares. As a foreigner I don't get to vote on this initiative anyway, so it matters not a whit whether I agree or disagree, think it is despicable or about time, or whatever.

I take your point. Iíve never lived in a country like that but, of course, I think we all know that there are those where the courts are under the control of the governments and interpret the law in a somewhat Ďtwistedí fashion !

I know the use of black and white sheep is offensive to some people but to those of us who are getting a bit Ďstone ageí we donít think of it in that way. When we were kids black and white sheep had no racist connotation. A black sheet was someone who was a bad person. We called a member of my own family the black sheep of the family because of something he did but, of course, it had no racial meaning. Itís all in the mind.

Nairda 24.07.2007 18:44

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Bear in mind, this initiative is being put forward now because there is a general election in October and it raises the SVP's profile amongst their supporters.
Assuming it gets enough signatures, the government will no doubt put forward an alternative more moderate proposal.
The Swiss will vote for the moderate option. That's the Swiss way.
In the meantime, they'll be months and months of adverts showing white sheep booting out black sheep.
Unless the SVP run out of cash. ;)

Personally, I think locking up convicted criminals is more of a deterrent than deporting the foreign ones. It's the same psyche that makes expats comply with regulations they feel are silly, whereas at home they'd probably tell the council to sod off and hang the consequences. Tell me I'm wrong. <smilie for flood gates opening>

Lob 24.07.2007 18:45

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GVA offline (Post 86541)
I don't know about german, but the term "black sheep" is commonly used in both french and english to describe a bad guy. It has no racist undertone what so ever. Yet in your outrage you all choose to associate bad guy with black immigrants. There's nothing wrong with the poster, only with people looking at it.

I wish the world was like you, mate...

chemgoddess 24.07.2007 18:45

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Yes, we are all familiar with the "black sheep" terminology. This is the English forum afterall. It's still inappropriate. And I don't believe anyone was outraged. However, the party who put forth the initiative is known for wanting to keep Switzerland Swiss. And I, 100%, believe that the cartoon has intentional racial overtones.

This would not be acceptable in the US, it would be appcompanied with a significant backlash amongst minority populations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GVA offline (Post 86541)
I don't know about german, but the term "black sheep" is commonly used in both french and english to describe a bad guy. It has no racist undertone what so ever. Yet in your outrage you all choose to associate bad guy with black immigrants. There's nothing wrong with the poster, only with people looking at it.


Nairda 24.07.2007 18:50

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GVA offline (Post 86541)
I don't know about german, but the term "black sheep" is commonly used in both french and english to describe a bad guy. It has no racist undertone what so ever. Yet in your outrage you all choose to associate bad guy with black immigrants. There's nothing wrong with the poster, only with people looking at it.

The SVP regularly use images that *can* be harmless but when associated with the subject matter can also be construed in a racist way. They are quite clever at tapping into these feelings. If it happened only once by pure coincidence fair enough, but that's not the case.

GVA offline 24.07.2007 19:14

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 86551)
They are quite clever at tapping into these feelings.

the picture is brilliant on many levels. Ultimately that's my point.

chemgoddess 24.07.2007 19:16

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Post #1 does not equate with post #2. :confused:


Quote:

Originally Posted by GVA offline (Post 86563)
the picture is brilliant on many levels. Ultimately that's my point.


Blonaybear 24.07.2007 19:45

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 86546)
Personally, I think locking up convicted criminals is more of a deterrent than deporting the foreign ones. It's the same psyche that makes expats comply with regulations they feel are silly, whereas at home they'd probably tell the council to sod off and hang the consequences. Tell me I'm wrong. <smilie for flood gates opening>

I think you will find that the deportation would come after they have served their prison sentence.

Nairda 24.07.2007 19:48

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 86548)
the party who put forth the initiative is known for wanting to keep Switzerland Swiss. And I, 100%, believe that the cartoon has intentional racial overtones.

I'm repeating this anecdote I posted elsewhere as I believe it's relevant to the SVP's view of Switzerland.

I saw a news item on SF1 earlier this year after someone of Indian origin had been elected to the Zug parliament on the alternative list. They asked an SVP politician what he thought of his new colleague. He said it looked a bit odd having someone of his colour in the parliament at first, but when he opened his mouth and spoke perfect Swiss German there was no longer an issue, as he was obviously one of us.

I think that says a lot about the Swiss-German attitude to race and to foreigners.

GVA offline 24.07.2007 19:59

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 86578)
I'm repeating this anecdote I posted elsewhere as I believe it's relevant to the SVP's view of Switzerland.

I saw a news item on SF1 earlier this year after someone of Indian origin had been elected to the Zug parliament on the alternative list. They asked an SVP politician what he thought of his new colleague. He said it looked a bit odd having someone of his colour in the parliament at first, but when he opened his mouth and spoke perfect Swiss German there was no longer an issue, as he was obviously one of us.

I think that says a lot about the Swiss-German attitude to race and to foreigners.


You mean their attitude is generaly positive and they accept foreigners as long make an effort to speak the language and integrate ?

you're doing your cause no favour.

nksyoon 24.07.2007 20:05

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 86578)
I'm repeating this anecdote I posted elsewhere as I believe it's relevant to the SVP's view of Switzerland.

I saw a news item on SF1 earlier this year after someone of Indian origin had been elected to the Zug parliament on the alternative list. They asked an SVP politician what he thought of his new colleague. He said it looked a bit odd having someone of his colour in the parliament at first, but when he opened his mouth and spoke perfect Swiss German there was no longer an issue, as he was obviously one of us.

I think that says a lot about the Swiss-German attitude to race and to foreigners.

So why is it that people who are born and have grown up in Switzerland (but don't have a Swiss parent) are still considered foreigners?

chemgoddess 24.07.2007 20:09

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
It's a global society these days. But. . . . . .

You missed the point.

The fact that it was even mentioned that he looked different is a bit strange to me . . . . . . . .would he have been so receptive if the Swiss german was spoken with an accent?



Quote:

Originally Posted by GVA offline (Post 86588)
You mean their attitude is generaly positive and they accept foreigners as long make an effort to speak the language and integrate ?

you're doing your cause no favour.


Nairda 24.07.2007 20:26

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86575)
I think you will find that the deportation would come after they have served their prison sentence.

The point I was trying to make was that I believe that the likelihood of being caught and receiving an appropriate prison sentence is more of a deterrent in itself than the threat of deportation thereafter.

Presumably, many of the serious offences cited by the SVP (e.g. rape and murder) carry long prison sentences. Given that for the offender the purpose of prison is punishment and rehabilitation, there seems little benefit in then deporting that person where, if they were Swiss, they would be considered suitably punished, rehabilitated and a fit and proper member of society once again.

The deportation is of benefit if the purpose is primarily to remove some foreigners from the country.

chemgoddess 24.07.2007 20:28

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Does anybody know what the current requirements for deportation are in Switzerland? I can't believe they don't already have something in place.

Colonelboris 24.07.2007 21:28

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 86602)
The point I was trying to make was that I believe that the likelihood of being caught and receiving an appropriate prison sentence is more of a deterrent in itself than the threat of deportation thereafter.

Presumably, many of the serious offences cited by the SVP (e.g. rape and murder) carry long prison sentences. Given that for the offender the purpose of prison is punishment and rehabilitation, there seems little benefit in then deporting that person where, if they were Swiss, they would be considered suitably punished, rehabilitated and a fit and proper member of society once again.

The deportation is of benefit if the purpose is primarily to remove some foreigners from the country.

Hmm, not quite. Even after being released from prison in the UK, several things are still barred to you, some for life. You also have to 'spend' your crime, ie, for some time after you leave prison, you must declare that you have had a conviction. You will also never serve in some government branches, be barred from certain other jobs and never, ever own a firearms licence or even own an air rifle.
Also, if you're a foreigner living in another country, you're sort of on approval and could be sent back at any point for any misdemeanour. It's part of living abroad that you have to take into account, especially if you do engage in criminal activity.
Now, bearing in mind the severity of the offences above (with the possible exception of the benefits one, that's not as bad a crime, more taking advantage of hospitality, which a lot people really do take seriously), why would you want to keep people who were guilty of those offences. Generally, they would attract long sentences, so giving plenty of time for appeals, so even miscarriages of justice should come to light in that time, accomanied with an appropriate apology.

Nairda 24.07.2007 22:02

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Colonelboris (Post 86627)
Hmm, not quite. Even after being released from prison in the UK, several things are still barred to you, some for life. You also have to 'spend' your crime, ie, for some time after you leave prison, you must declare that you have had a conviction. You will also never serve in some government branches, be barred from certain other jobs and never, ever own a firearms licence or even own an air rifle.
Also, if you're a foreigner living in another country, you're sort of on approval and could be sent back at any point for any misdemeanour. It's part of living abroad that you have to take into account, especially if you do engage in criminal activity.
Now, bearing in mind the severity of the offences above (with the possible exception of the benefits one, that's not as bad a crime, more taking advantage of hospitality, which a lot people really do take seriously), why would you want to keep people who were guilty of those offences. Generally, they would attract long sentences, so giving plenty of time for appeals, so even miscarriages of justice should come to light in that time, accomanied with an appropriate apology.

I fully accept the points about the offence remaining on record until spent and that some offences should always remain on record.
However, having spent many years and lots of money rehabilitating someone in prison (perhaps skilling them for a role that is much needed in the economy), on assessment deciding that they are now a fit person to be released (with the caveats you've mentioned, as would apply to any Swiss), I can see no benefit in then deporting them because they are foreign. If they are fit to be released they are fit to stay. Why should they be punished, rehabilitated and then punished again (by deportation) for the same offence.

Nairda 24.07.2007 22:11

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 86578)
I saw a news item on SF1 earlier this year after someone of Indian origin had been elected to the Zug parliament on the alternative list. They asked an SVP politician what he thought of his new colleague. He said it looked a bit odd having someone of his colour in the parliament at first, but when he opened his mouth and spoke perfect Swiss German there was no longer an issue, as he was obviously one of us.
I think that says a lot about the Swiss-German attitude to race and to foreigners.

OK, I can't comment on Romandie or Ticino, but this is my explanation of that quote and how I feel many Swiss-Germans perhaps sub-conciously think. This is not intended to be offensive in anyway to anyone whatever their background or to Swiss people.

Whilst believing all people to be essentially equal, if asked to rank people in order:
1. Swiss born and bred in your village or district.
2. Swiss from your Kanton.
3. Other Swiss-Germans (not included in 4 below).
4. Swiss from that place where they think they are better than you (usually Zurich).
5. French Swiss.
6. Italian Swiss.
7. Any foreigner who has a reasonable command of Swiss-German.
8. White foreigners from affluent countries.
9. White foreigners from less affluent countries.
10. Non-white foreigners from affluent countries.
11. Non-white foreigners from less affluent countries.

If you are non-white you will be at the bottom of the list until you demonstrate your citizenship and/or language, at which point your colour will become insignificant and you will be promoted up the list. If you speak the local Dialekt, even better. This is definitely a good point in as much as it demonstrates an acceptance of people who are integrated, however until you become known in your locality or workplace your colour will always announce itself first. This is more of a problem with strangers including people in authority, such as the police.
If you are second or third generation, but without citizenship, you'll most probably be at 7. It's a big leap to citizenship and won't be easy. Speaking perfect Dialekt puts you well ahead of other foreigners (such as Germans who "won't" learn the language) and that's something you should be grateful for.

Blonaybear 24.07.2007 22:11

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 86646)
I fully accept the points about the offence remaining on record until spent and that some offences should always remain on record.
However, having spent many years and lots of money rehabilitating someone in prison (perhaps skilling them for a role that is much needed in the economy), on assessment deciding that they are now a fit person to be released (with the caveats you've mentioned, as would apply to any Swiss), I can see no benefit in then deporting them because they are foreign. If they are fit to be released they are fit to stay. Why should they be punished, rehabilitated and then punished again (by deportation) for the same offence.

That are not held until they are considered fit to be released but released at the end of their sentence. If the sentence was, say, 5 years prison and deportation then that's what the sentence is.

Blonaybear 24.07.2007 22:53

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 86603)
Does anybody know what the current requirements for deportation are in Switzerland? I can't believe they don't already have something in place.

Iíve spent quite some time trying to find the answer to this and I think the position is that a court can order deportation when it passes sentence or, when the sentence has been completed it is also possible that the authorities can deport the criminal then. As I say, Iím not sure about this but I will try and clarify further.

The initiative would mean that if a foreigner commits any of the crimes listed then being excluded from Switzerland for 5 to 15 years would automatically become part of the sentence.

Sentences in Switzerland tend to be shorter than in many countries and I suppose you could say that, for example, 15 years for murder plus 15 years banned from the country is a lot lighter than 99 years that you might get in some American states or 30 years that you could get in the UK.



Polorise 25.07.2007 15:19

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Interestingly enough, in this mornings 20 Minuten, one of the lead articles is around forcing parents of yoof/chav/scum (my terminology) to hand over some folding stuff if their little cherubs are under 18 & are caught tagging/dealing drugs or just being a general pest. This is being promoted by the Bernese Kanton Polizei.
Am sitting in Cafe Nero drinking a Mocha (:msntongue:) & don't have time to frivolously waste on doing a search, could someone with better German than me please have a look ?

chemgoddess 25.07.2007 15:25

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Ah, so perhaps this would make it mandatory for a variety of violations whereas in the past it was up to the discretion of the court?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86658)
Iíve spent quite some time trying to find the answer to this and I think the position is that a court can order deportation when it passes sentence or, when the sentence has been completed it is also possible that the authorities can deport the criminal then. As I say, Iím not sure about this but I will try and clarify further.

The initiative would mean that if a foreigner commits any of the crimes listed then being excluded from Switzerland for 5 to 15 years would automatically become part of the sentence.

Sentences in Switzerland tend to be shorter than in many countries and I suppose you could say that, for example, 15 years for murder plus 15 years banned from the country is a lot lighter than 99 years that you might get in some American states or 30 years that you could get in the UK.




Blonaybear 25.07.2007 15:33

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86658)
Iíve spent quite some time trying to find the answer to this and I think the position is that a court can order deportation when it passes sentence or, when the sentence has been completed it is also possible that the authorities can deport the criminal then. As I say, Iím not sure about this but I will try and clarify further.

Having looked at bit further I found cases at the local tribunal where foreigners who were not resident in CH who were convicted of a crime and their sentence included a ban on entering Switzerland again for a number of years.

For those who have residence permits it seems that they can be deported when their sentence is spent and it appears to be a cantional matter. Presumably they can withdraw the permit or it may expire while they are sevring their sentence.

chemgoddess 25.07.2007 15:37

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Kinda what I figured, I just couldn't find any info in English. Which still brings me to the point of "What exactly is the SVP trying to put forward and what are their motives"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86821)
Having looked at bit further I found cases at the local tribunal where foreigners who were not resident in CH who were convicted of a crime and their sentence included a ban on entering Switzerland again for a number of years.

For those who have residence permits it seems that they can be deported when their sentence is spent and it appears to be a cantional matter. Presumably they can withdraw the permit or it may expire while they are sevring their sentence.


Blonaybear 25.07.2007 15:41

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 86812)
Ah, so perhaps this would make it mandatory for a variety of violations whereas in the past it was up to the discretion of the court?

That would appear to be the case as far as I can tell.

Also came across this:

Switzerland has the highest proportion of foreigners in Europe, about 20% of the population, but they account for 48.9% of those convicted under criminal law.



Lob 25.07.2007 15:42

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 86823)
Kinda what I figured, I just couldn't find any info in English. Which still brings me to the point of "What exactly is the SVP trying to put forward and what are their motives"

"undesirables, out"?

Check out the SVP forum with gems like this... and the thread through Google Translate

gbn 25.07.2007 15:57

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86827)
That would appear to be the case as far as I can tell.

Also came across this:

Switzerland has the highest proportion of foreigners in Europe, about 20% of the population, but they account for 48.9% of those convicted under criminal law.



This could easily be a statistic such as:
10% of the US population is black, but 35% of the prison population is black.
(made up figures but same principle)

Are blacks/foreigners/scapegoat group really any more criminally minded, or just have more police focus, or more poverty, or whatever...

Edit:
I've seen threads here where the police assume that white, middle aged male driver must be at fault in a car accident.
Criminal! Chuck him out! Make Swiss roads safe again for geriatric old ladies!

AbFab 25.07.2007 16:34

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gbn (Post 86833)
This could easily be a statistic such as:
10% of the US population is black, but 35% of the prison population is black.
(made up figures but same principle)

Are blacks/foreigners/scapegoat group really any more criminally minded, or just have more police focus, or more poverty, or whatever...

Edit:
I've seen threads here where the police assume that white, middle aged male driver must be at fault in a car accident.
Criminal! Chuck him out! Make Swiss roads safe again for geriatric old ladies!

The "or whatever" could be that they don't run away fast enough. But most likely is simply that blacks commit more crimes. Or would you argue that the figures showing that drivers under 25 have more accidents is in fact the police's fault too...

chemgoddess 25.07.2007 16:45

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Well, considering I don't know what exactly is included in "commiting more crimes". . . . .Is that based upon actual convictions? Is it based upon prison numbers? Is it based upon arrests? There are a million factors that go into play for each of those. However, the whiter your skin and the more money you have the less likely you are to 1) get arrested 2) get convicted and 3) go to jail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbFab (Post 86849)
The "or whatever" could be that they don't run away fast enough. But most likely is simply that blacks commit more crimes. Or would you argue that the figures showing that drivers under 25 have more accidents is in fact the police's fault too...


Blonaybear 25.07.2007 16:55

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 86823)
"What exactly is the SVP trying to put forward and what are their motives"

Who knows what the motive may be. Does it matter ? You should surely consider the initiative as it stands and not who proposed it. Is it a good proposition ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lob Rockster (Post 86828)
"undesirables, out"?

Undesirables being convicted murders, rapists, drug traffickers, people traffickers and social benefit fraudsters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 86855)
Well, considering I don't know what exactly is included in "commiting more crimes". . . . .Is that based upon actual convictions? Is it based upon prison numbers? Is it based upon arrests? There are a million factors that go into play for each of those. However, the whiter your skin and the more money you have the less likely you are to 1) get arrested 2) get convicted and 3) go to jail.

And, perhaps, commit a crime in the first place ?

Colonelboris 25.07.2007 17:01

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I remember when some pressure groups in the UK went beserk when one of the high-ranking copper said that 75% of all crime in London was thought to be done by a small minority of black youths. He was just quoting a statistic, but it really hit the fan over that. when I'm not at work and in constant fear of being found playing on the internet, I'll try and look it up...

Blonaybear 25.07.2007 17:08

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Colonelboris (Post 86864)
I remember when some pressure groups in the UK went beserk when one of the high-ranking copper said that 75% of all crime in London was thought to be done by a small minority of black youths. He was just quoting a statistic, but it really hit the fan over that. when I'm not at work and in constant fear of being found playing on the internet, I'll try and look it up...

I remember that one.
Also remember Enoch Powell MP who warned that if the UK did not stem the flow of immigrants the streets would flow with blood. He had to resign because of his comments and we didn't do anything about immigration and the streets did flow with blood (Brixton riots etc etc).

AbFab 25.07.2007 17:35

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 86855)
Well, considering I don't know what exactly is included in "commiting more crimes". . . . .Is that based upon actual convictions? Is it based upon prison numbers? Is it based upon arrests? There are a million factors that go into play for each of those. However, the whiter your skin and the more money you have the less likely you are to 1) get arrested 2) get convicted and 3) go to jail.

You forgot number 4):
Less likely to commit a crime...

gbn 25.07.2007 17:57

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I'm not saying whether it's true or not, just beware of statistics.

I happen to believe that the culture, poverty, whatever of some groups will cause them to view criminal activity as more acceptable than others.
No names, no pack drill.

So some groups commit more crime. Yes, I agree.
I also assume for some (whether small or high %) of this group, the assumption that they'll commit crime causes them to do so.
"In for penny, in for pound" or maybe "well I'll be treated like a criminal anyway..."

I'm no bleeding heart, just suspicious of how statistics are used.

Nairda 26.07.2007 15:46

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AbFab (Post 86849)
But most likely is simply that blacks commit more crimes.

Scapegoat one group, target resources against that group, throw in some discriminatory attitudes at various levels of the criminal justice system (police, courts, prison, probation), pay less attention to white collar crime (such as city financial fraud) committed by the those with more money and influence and low and behold, blacks/foreigners/scapegoats commit more crimes, leading to posters of white sheep kicking out black sheep, more scapegoating, more focusing of resources against blacks/foreigners etc etc.
Of course it's nice and simple to assume that the only thing wrong is those scapegoated, which neatly justifies their scapegoating.

Nairda 26.07.2007 15:49

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86869)
I remember that one.
Also remember Enoch Powell MP who warned that if the UK did not stem the flow of immigrants the streets would flow with blood. He had to resign because of his comments and we didn't do anything about immigration and the streets did flow with blood (Brixton riots etc etc).

Enoch Powell was right and the SVP are right is the perfect analogy.
I wouldn't vote for Enoch and I shan't vote for the SVP initiative.

Blonaybear 26.07.2007 16:10

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
The proposed initiative would mean that foreigners, who have been granted permission to reside in this country, would automatically loose that right for between 5 and 15 years if they are convicted of certain serious crimes, as detailed above.



Do you think this is unreasonable ?

magyir 26.07.2007 19:46

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Might go for it if there was a similar restriction on travel imposed on the Swiss for similar crimes ie no travel for them outside CH for the same periods for similar sentences/crimes.


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