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  #441  
Old 16.10.2007, 16:43
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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It is understandable in an expat forum but I agree, Switzerland should move on.

Here's a leading article that doesn't see that dark for the middle parties, to cheer you up. (You've cast your vote, have you? )
The article concludes with this;

The elections of 2007 in Switzerland would be the expression of a typical Swiss culture delay, and also highlight turning point of a trend and not its beginning.
Die SVP bewegt sich an ihrer Sättigungsgrenze und muss einen grossen Effort leisten, um dieser nur schon nahe zu kommen.
The SVP moves to its saturation limit, and must make a big effort to have this just to come close.


Which is what I was hoping, but my fear is that if people assuming that this polarization will run its course then they may fail to recognize a movement that is snowballing. I don't see the checks and balances that others do to protect the system. Also the only radicals in terms of far right and left that I see are the Blocher wannabees and the Underground left who caused the violence at the last SVP rally. Calmy-Rey condemned the violence and seems to me very level-headed. Also although I hope that it is a transition period for the Swiss, I don't think that they would take kindly to the suggestion in the article that they lag behind Europe in their cultural evolution. As far as anti-discrimination goes- OK that's pretty much indisputable given the facts, but in many other areas they are to me way ahead, the environment being just one of them.
If the Swiss want to resolve this sticky trsansitory period then they have to vote and not leave it to run its curse.
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  #442  
Old 17.10.2007, 07:59
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Much appreciated thanks. Gordon Brown has for a long time hated Switzerland's stance on banking confidentiality because they won't let him poke into the details of accounts held here, so the current attack by the DT makes sense now.

Let us not forget that a very large chunk of the UK media (Sky, Sun, Times to quote just 3) is owned by the Murdoch empire.

That'll be the end of free speech in the UK press then?

I'm afraid I don't buy your suggestion that Gordon Brown directly influences what the Daily Telegraph reports. Nevertheless, it is possible that I have misrepresented the Telegraph's standpoint and I do apologise for that. By "one of the UK's most right wing newspapers" I meant to say that it was traditionally a staunch supporter of the Tories. I didn't mean that it was extreme right wing. Whether the Telegraph is now going risk it's market share by abandoning the views of it's traditional readership remains to be seen.

I agree with you that much of the press is sadly in the hands of only a few barons who therefore have a huge influence on their readers. The lack of sensationalist coverage of the chain saw incident ( http://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/13353-chainsaw-attack-whats-happening-country.html ) might suggest who is in control of the Swiss press. Yet most of the SVP followers I know regard the Swiss media as being far too left wing. I personally find encouragement in the NZZ article which Nathu quoted. It remains to be seen if the predictions of this correspondent prove to be accurate. Let's hope so.
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  #443  
Old 17.10.2007, 17:56
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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I'm afraid I don't buy your suggestion that Gordon Brown directly influences what the Daily Telegraph reports.
OK, I'll admit I'm a bit over-sensitive in that area.

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Whether the Telegraph is now going risk it's market share by abandoning the views of it's traditional readership remains to be seen.
I recall thinking the Telegraph being too right wing for me in the 1980s, but started reading it again in the mid-1990s, and was pleasantly surprised at the balance it achieved. I'd hate to see that disappear.

Quote:
I agree with you that much of the press is sadly in the hands of only a few barons who therefore have a huge influence on their readers. The lack of sensationalist coverage of the chain saw incident ( http://www.englishforum.ch/daily-life/13353-chainsaw-attack-whats-happening-country.html ) might suggest who is in control of the Swiss press.
I'm still unsure about that incident. Chainsaws in the early hours of the morning made me think it was a premeditated attack, but without access to the police report I don't wish to speculate any further in a public forum.

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Yet most of the SVP followers I know regard the Swiss media as being far too left wing. I personally find encouragement in the NZZ article which Nathu quoted. It remains to be seen if the predictions of this correspondent prove to be accurate. Let's hope so.
Thanks, I missed Nathu's pointer the first time around. I'll read the article this evening.
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  #444  
Old 17.10.2007, 18:05
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

I would be grateful for help with a translation for this, which I think, from what I can gather, is infinitely more subversive than the posters.

http://www.zottel- game.ch/
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  #445  
Old 17.10.2007, 22:57
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

There is another thread dedicated to those SVP Zottel games....

New Games From SVP

I'm not going to risk translating them because it may lead to your becoming brainwashed.
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  #446  
Old 18.10.2007, 00:58
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

Yep, major item on the BBC Ten O'Clock News tonight - "Swiss election campaign dominated by racism and foreigners". Apart from cuckoo clocks (sic) and chocolate, this is now unfortunately what most people in the UK know about Switzerland.
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  #447  
Old 18.10.2007, 01:20
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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It is understandable in an expat forum but I agree, Switzerland should move on.

Here's a leading article that doesn't see that dark for the middle parties, to cheer you up. (You've cast your vote, have you? )
Good analysis.

SVP suppport has peaked and it's cost them SFr20 million to maintain their position.

One of the effects of the SVP's black sheep campaign is the growth in the Green vote - likely to be the biggest gainers overall in the election.

And, in parliament, the SVP are effectively neutered as they can achieve nothing without the support of either the centre or the left and the FDP and CVP may well be more confident if as predicted they've halted their decline.

If the FDP and CVP can co-operate more effectively, there will be a consolidation towards the centre in the future.

Well, that's my take on it all.
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  #448  
Old 18.10.2007, 02:02
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

Here's the main article in Der Spiegel (in English) entitled.

WHITE SHEEP, BLACK SHEEP Bringing Rancor to a Swiss Election

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...511849,00.html

The printed magazine devotes 4 pages to the subject.
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  #449  
Old 18.10.2007, 04:01
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

I think the law is also pretty scary especially when they think that kicking foriegners out will help the situation . As far as crimes committed by young people the did research and behold , 67% of these crimes were committed by swiss youngters ! Also if they what to kick people out ,one more question , o is who is going to pay their AHV ? These xenophobic attitudes are not helping the Swiss in the long run ,but its a deep part of the culture . Im patiently waiting for a change of heart .


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  #450  
Old 18.10.2007, 04:02
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

I think the law is also pretty scary especially when they think that kicking foriegners out will help the situation . As far as crimes committed by young people the did research and behold , 67% of these crimes were committed by swiss youngters ! Also if they what to kick people out ,one more question ,who is who is going to pay their AHV ? These xenophobic attitudes are not helping the Swiss in the long run ,but its a deep part of the culture . Im patiently waiting for a change of heart .


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  #451  
Old 18.10.2007, 04:14
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Also although I hope that it is a transition period for the Swiss, I don't think that they would take kindly to the suggestion in the article that they lag behind Europe in their cultural evolution. As far as anti-discrimination goes- OK that's pretty much indisputable given the facts, but in many other areas they are to me way ahead, the environment being just one of them.
If the Swiss want to resolve this sticky trsansitory period then they have to vote and not leave it to run its curse.
By cultural delay the journalist meant the political developments and not the country's stand on immigration. He thinks that polarising election campaign tacticts still work in Switzerland for now, meanwhile in Germany, France and the UK the pendulum has swung back to successful centrist strategies.

By the way, an immigrants integration study recently put Switzerland in the middle of an European list (article in German).
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Old 18.10.2007, 06:34
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

Switzerland lacks a dedicated anti-discrimination law. ... Yet it is evident that complainants who bring forward a case are not protected from victimisation in the many fields of life. They also do not benefit from legal aid or shifts in the burden of proof. Equality policies keep the specialised equality agency out of the courtroom by limiting its powers to advising victims or investigating their cases. http://www.integrationindex.eu/mapscharts/

According to the BBC this still stands-Basically the anti-discrimination laws are on par with Latvia- the lowest in Europe. If the law does not protect you then you basically have no rights.

As I believe this recent 'sippenhaft' case shows. One of Switzerland's leading football players was under pressure by his local village especially the SVP to play for their team. He received threats. When he didn't join his father's application for a Swiss pass was refused, even though his father had been in the country for years, and was a regular tax payer. http://www.nacional.hr/en/articles/view/37195/18/

Also on the Swissinfo there is an article about the Auslaender Schweizer vote ( swiss abroad vote) the only party that is mentioned for possible candidacy for a Swiss abroad post is the SVP. unbiased reporting? Maybe I missed it somewhere. http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/electio...01548000&ty=st

You might say that the BBC is biased and you might be right. But they ran a report again tonight, and it did as one of the posts on this forum discusses make me ask myself if the Swiss reputation is going down the plughole.

Lastly, this year has seen more money being put into campaigning than ever before. The SVP pump much more money in than any other party. To me money and politics often include corruption. Apparently, the Austrians have been busy buying and selling Swiss votes. I dont really understand this fully, but who has the money to buy these votes and why are they being bought? The answer seems to be (according to some reporters) that foreign companies use them to vote for the maintenance of Swiss tax loopholes so that they can dodge tax in their own countries. Of course Blocher is fully in favour of keeping these EU loopholes, so are the Austrian businessmen who buy the votes. http://wahlgeld.com/home.html

It seems to me that Blocher's cherry-picking of EU policies discriminate not only against foreigners but also against his own people. There is a growing number of fraud cases in big business which us ripping off the ordinary Swiss. http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/top_new...42786000&ty=st
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  #453  
Old 19.10.2007, 18:24
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

Seems like the funding is an issue of concern. Please vote right or left, just make your voice heard.

Following Reported in Swissinfo:

Political funding

October 18, 2007 - 12:23 PM
Swiss elections under OSCE scrutiny

Experts from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) have arrived in Switzerland ahead of Sunday's parliamentary elections.


Despite no political funding expert taking part in this observer mission, the question of funding for political parties and election campaigns will also be looked at.
Voter turnout in the last parliamentary elections in 2003 was around 45 per cent. The election observers will also be examining this phenomenon......

DeGregorio said that low voter participation begged the question whether voters were demotivated because all the big parties were already represented in government.

"A country with participation below 50 per cent should be worried," he said.
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  #454  
Old 20.10.2007, 13:21
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

I think this sums it up

"About 20% of our population is foreign now and some of them are very aggressive. I think portraying them as sheep is too nice - I like sheep " Swiss farmer quoted on the BBC website

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7050498.stm


"I think many Swiss will be happy when this election is over," says Georg Lutz, a political analyst at the University of Bern
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  #455  
Old 20.10.2007, 15:31
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

And the answer to those with their heads in the sand saying this campaign has nothing to do with deporting whole families is the quote in the article from Blocher himself:
Quote:
"The People's Party has said clearly we have to set rules for foreigners and immigrants," Mr Blocher told journalists at a campaign rally.
"We've got to be strict with them. We've got a rising crime rate - people from the Balkans especially are committing crimes - we think they and their families should be deported."
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  #456  
Old 20.10.2007, 15:55
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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And the answer to those with their heads in the sand saying this campaign has nothing to do with deporting whole families is the quote in the article from Blocher himself:
This idea has reared its ugly head several times yet while SVP politicians were babbling, but this doesn't change the fact that it's not part of the initiative.
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Old 20.10.2007, 16:30
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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This idea has reared its ugly head several times yet while SVP politicians were babbling, but this doesn't change the fact that it's not part of the initiative.
It's not in the wording of the initiative, but has featured as part of the campaign around the initiative and has been raised by the SVP in parliament.

In looking at an initiative it strikes me as perfectly sensible to consider the whole campaign around it. Particularly, the sentiments coming directly from the leading politicians involved.

To make the point (and no, of course the SVP are not the nazis) someone up thread posted a nazi image poster, that IIRC said, in essence - A chronically sick/disabled person receives x Marks a day. A careful family could live off that amount for a week. Well, there is nothing necessarily wrong with that sentiment. Many countries, including Switzerland, have tightened up the benefit payments system for such people. However, I would have thought differently about the vote on this in June if it had been accompanied by a vilification campaign that, as in nazi Germany, led first to forced sterilisation and then to the death camps.

IMHO, it's heads in the sand to discount what the proponents of the initiative are saying in the campaign.
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  #458  
Old 20.10.2007, 18:17
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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In looking at an initiative it strikes me as perfectly sensible to consider the whole campaign around it. Particularly, the sentiments coming directly from the leading politicians involved.
Well, I prefer a different approach. I usually don't care where an initiative comes from. I read the wording of the initiative (or the law in case of a referendum), then consider the arguments of both sides and finally I'll decide. Of course, statements of politicians will influence my decision as long as they deal with the initiative or the law in question, but otherwise I don't really care what they say or how they behave. This matters when it comes to elections but not for votes on initiatives or referenda.
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Old 20.10.2007, 18:48
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

Now that's a bouquet of critics Verena Scherer. Here is my point of view:

The Integration Index

The Integration Index sometimes sets high bars and there's no intrinsical value in the first rank (for example, is it condemnable that Switzerland only has a 44% naturalisation score?) I think that some anti discrimination actions make more sense than others. To fully quote your paragraph:

Quote:
Switzerland lacks a dedicated anti-discrimination law. The definitions of anti-discrimination cover religion/belief and race/ethnicity but not nationality. Only a limited number of actors can be punished for discriminating, leaving many outside the law. Moreover, anti-discrimination laws do not apply in any of the fields of life measured by MIPEX, a critical weakness for Switzerland. Enforcement mechanisms score exactly halfway to best practice. They have access to various procedures and a wide range of possible penalties for guilty parties. Yet it is evident that complainants who bring forward a case are not protected from victimisation in the many fields of life. They also do not benefit from legal aid or shifts in the burden of proof. Equality policies keep the specialised equality agency out of the courtroom by limiting its powers to advising victims or investigating their cases.
(Underscore added) - Public funding for all who claim that they're racially discriminated? Shift in the burden of proof, so the accused has to proof that he did NOT discriminate? A few percent points I gratefully abstain from. I disagree that without a strong anti discrimination law, immigrants have "basically no rights". They just don't have special protection.


Family Rakitic

Ah, the many uses of the word Sippenhaft. It has a horrible past. Then it was used for evictions and now you apply it to a citizenship case.

Mister Rakitic's application wasn't denied, but put on hold. You can read this in the article you linked. Now I won't judge the mayor's decision and have no personal experience in this matter, but it is my understanding that the processing of a request for naturalisation can take some time in Switzerland. No doubt we will learn in the media how the story ends.


Votes and candidates from abroad

Entire lists of Swiss expats are a young phenomenon. I call them marketing lists, like the young parties' and senior citizen's lists. Their main purpose is to gather a few additional votes for the main list of the alliance to maybe score an additional seat. I wonder if an elected Swiss expat candidate would really walk the walk and come to Switzerland for the parliamentary sessions.

In canton Zurich, the Swiss People's Party and the Free Democratic Party of Switzerland (FDP) are the only two parties that created an expat candidate list. I don't know about the other cantons but the rule of thumb is that the more seats a canton occupies in the national parliament, the more tactical lists will come into play. And no other canton has more seats than Zurich. You can find the lists and alliances of the Zurich election here.


The Austrians behind wahlgeld.com

It is of course illegal to sell one's vote!

Wahlgeld.com is a fake and artistic performance of the artist group ÜBERMORGEN.COM. Their message is that everybody has his price etc... They claim that in fact about two dozen Swiss voters sent them their voting documents in exchange for 75 Fr., but that they didn't use the documents for voting. This claim is not verifiable, which is also part of the artistic performance or so I think... The entire stunt wasn't overly creative because the very same artist collective has done it before at the American presidential election 2000. It was called [V]ote-auction back then.


Business fraud

What is the link between EU rules, Blocher and business fraud?


OSCE and voter participation

Political funding is a topic that was raised by some parties and not the OSCE if I'm not mistaken. I think that big donations should be revealed. The OSCE visit is not to be understood as an alarm sign - It's an information and culture exchange. They're also interested in voting by letter because this method is not very common. It would be cool in some way if they come to the informatics center where I process votes tomorrow!

I don't think we should worry about the participation rate, but we should keep an eye on it. The two arguments supporting this opinion: Even with a low participation rate, the average Swiss influences politics much more than his neighbors thanks to direct democracy. And surveys among Swiss recruits show that even those who don't use their rights to vote are happy with the Swiss system of democracy.
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Old 20.10.2007, 19:18
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Well, I prefer a different approach. I usually don't care where an initiative comes from. I read the wording of the initiative (or the law in case of a referendum), then consider the arguments of both sides and finally I'll decide. Of course, statements of politicians will influence my decision as long as they deal with the initiative or the law in question, but otherwise I don't really care what they say or how they behave. This matters when it comes to elections but not for votes on initiatives or referenda.
I totally respect that, although I suspect a lot of people look at what the political parties and interest groups are recommending, including what they are saying on the wider issues.
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