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  #481  
Old 24.10.2007, 11:10
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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I understand that the prison population in Switzerland is 70% foreign. Those are probably the blackest of the black sheep and first in line to be kicked out. Then you can work through asylum abusers and other undesirables that rob Switzerland of its once clean, relatively crime-free, characteristic SWISS culture. If you like Turkish culture, go to Turkey, if you like African culture, go to Africa. Who but us can preserve our unique Swiss culture in Switzerland? Once it is lost, it's gone forever. We can still be hospitable to foreigners while we love and preserve our own culture. Naturalize only those who are proven fully assimilated. Don't allow Switzerland to deteriorate to an unattractive and increasingly spreading "world" standard. Preserve the old Switzerland, it's worth it.

and if you like philippines culture go to the philippines.

True, I think you can preserve Swiss culture without racist/xenophocic attitudes. And the SVP campaign was not balanced like the last part of your post, it was overtly racist to bring out the very worst in Swiss culture. personally, I don't think a culture that can't accept others is something to be preserved. I do agree with assimilation, but hopefully being a white Swiss is not what is required to assimilate.

I do believe a political campaign as per the SVP will eventually lead to the downfall of Switzerland. There are plenty of ways to make the argument about assimiliation without digging into peope's blackest part of their soul where fear of those not like you sits.
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  #482  
Old 24.10.2007, 12:51
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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it's strange that the leftist are somehow to blame even though they never held a majority in parliament :hmm:
Haven't you got the memo? Everything less national-conservative than the SVP is considered part of the leftist conspiracy now.

But to re-use Bill Clinton's quote: Not parties import workers - "it's the economy, stupid". And the economy overproportionally fills the pockets of the FDP and SVP. In fact the Social Democrats are the only party in the federal council that bases a significant part of its income on membership fees (30% vs. p.e. 5% at FDP; source).

Are there more "black sheep" among foreigners than Swiss? It's a complex matter. Once you factor in residence, immigration laws and sociodemography, the picture isn't as clear anymore. peri1224 I see you know German, there's a good overview here.

A similar situation are the 71% foreign prisioners. If you factor in that foreigners have a greater risk of getting imprisioned on remand and some are waiting for deportation, the foreigners percentage at prisioners serving a sentence goes down some percents (source).

But these thoughts aren't very compatible with the SVP statistics cherry-picking. I'll never forget their statistic that indicated there will be 144% muslims in Switzerland in a few years.
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  #483  
Old 24.10.2007, 13:35
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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I think there's not a single democracy out there who deserves this name where selling one's vote is legal?
Wake up. Representative democracy is entirely about selling your vote.
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  #484  
Old 24.10.2007, 15:11
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Haven't you got the memo? Everything less national-conservative than the SVP is considered part of the leftist conspiracy now.
oh, yeah, I forgot. And on top of the lefties there's the 'nice' ones too They're out to get us, I'm sure

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A similar situation are the 71% foreign prisioners. If you factor in that foreigners have a greater risk of getting imprisioned on remand and some are waiting for deportation, the foreigners percentage at prisioners serving a sentence goes down some percents (source).
ahh, such is the power of statistics....

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But these thoughts aren't very compatible with the SVP statistics cherry-picking. I'll never forget their statistic that indicated there will be 144% muslims in Switzerland in a few years.
you're kidding, right?
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  #485  
Old 24.10.2007, 15:42
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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But these thoughts aren't very compatible with the SVP statistics cherry-picking. I'll never forget their statistic that indicated there will be 144% muslims in Switzerland in a few years.
A gross error indeed.
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  #486  
Old 24.10.2007, 16:39
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Wake up. Representative democracy is entirely about selling your vote.
Oh, a cynic. Two party systems are more vulnerable I think. But generally speaking there is nothing wrong with parties representing interests and ideologies. As long as the parties play with their cards open.

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oh, yeah, I forgot. And on top of the lefties there's the 'nice' ones too They're out to get us, I'm sure
You're familiar with this SVP phrase then.

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you're kidding, right?
Enjoy:



They took two numbers from the federal department of statistics and made a multiplicated (!) extrapolation that ends with a 72% muslim population in 2040. It should look like an official calculation of the department. No mention of the balcan war refugees either. The ethics comitee of the statistics department later officially criticised the advertisement.

"They" was the "Überparteiliches Komitee gegen Masseneinbürgerungen" in a vote campaign back in 2004. This "non-party" comitee was significantly financed by SVP hardliner Ulrich Schlüer (which, other than Christoph Blocher, had verifiable business ties to South Africa during the Apartheid).
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  #487  
Old 24.10.2007, 16:57
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

[quote=Nathu;121398]
Are there more "black sheep" among foreigners than Swiss? It's a complex matter. Once you factor in residence, immigration laws and sociodemography, the picture isn't as clear anymore.


It's not more complex than the question whether the 70/71% number is correct or not. If it is, there is only one criterion to judge a prisoner. Did he do the crime or not? If yes, goodbye. If he gets the easy treatment for reasons of sociodemography, etc., ughh, it's unfair, it's unlawful and just not right. The picture is crystal clear.
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  #488  
Old 24.10.2007, 17:28
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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You're familiar with this SVP phrase then.
these days there's hardly a way around that phrase

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awesome

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This "non-party" comitee was significantly financed by SVP hardliner Ulrich Schlüer (which, other than Christoph Blocher, had verifiable business ties to South Africa during the Apartheid).
When you mentioned Schlüer I just had a horrible thought: Is it true that if Maurer makes it into the Ständerat that Schlüer would be the next in line to get his Nationalrat seat?
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  #489  
Old 24.10.2007, 19:43
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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The problem is that for many voters Blocher is William Tell....
I thought that he was already claiming to be a 'White Knight' cant wait to see his tatoos!

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  #490  
Old 24.10.2007, 19:54
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

In the US they are trying to pass an act that will allow all students with a GED and serve in the military to get nationality.

Many of the non-Swiss prisoners are guilty of petty crimes or immigration problems.

Is it possible for a Swiss to give up Swiss nationality?
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  #491  
Old 24.10.2007, 20:14
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/d...=1151658618000

Around 70 per cent of prisoners in Switzerland are not Swiss but not because foreigners commit more crimes according to a recent study.

This suprises me as foreigners often have additional problems which would cause anyone to become angry or desperate and so more likely to act illegally punch a wall, get drunk etc. Maybe this has something to do with the strict Islamic code with drugs, alcohol etc.


Also, it is important to remember that prisoners awaiting deportation are not kept in the same conditions as regular prisoners. very often they are in seperate quarters or prisons and do not have the same rights or provision. There are accounts of these conditions available on-line.
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  #492  
Old 24.10.2007, 20:16
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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When you mentioned Schlüer I just had a horrible thought: Is it true that if Maurer makes it into the Ständerat that Schlüer would be the next in line to get his Nationalrat seat?
Yes. He was on the 10th position of the SVP list and finished 13th, and the Zurich SVP scored 12 seats. And the Social Democrats and the Green Liberals can't agree which of their candidates should run against Maurer.
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  #493  
Old 25.10.2007, 10:01
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Yes. He was on the 10th position of the SVP list and finished 13th, and the Zurich SVP scored 12 seats. And the Social Democrats and the Green Liberals can't agree which of their candidates should run against Maurer.
argh, it is as I feared, then Personally I would have preferred Verena Diener in the Ständerat, but either of them is better than Maurer (and even more important, IMHO, Schlüer in the Nationalrat :shiver
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  #494  
Old 25.10.2007, 13:28
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Oh, a cynic.
I prefer "realist" . First they promise you shedloads of things, whether that be tax cuts, increases in health spending, whatever, they get your vote as a result, then they do what they want for the next few years without any comeback.
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  #495  
Old 25.10.2007, 13:33
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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The problem is that for many voters Blocher is William Tell....
From his side, Arnold von Winkelried, apparently. Should we start a collection to buy some pikes, spears, and the like?
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  #496  
Old 25.10.2007, 14:47
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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From his side, Arnold von Winkelried, apparently. Should we start a collection to buy some pikes, spears, and the like?
Arnis actions asa knight are a myth, or a publicity stunt to whip up nationalistic support in potential White Knights everywhere:

The genealogy of the Winkelrieds of Unterwalden has been studied meticulously, and while an "Erni Winkelried" or "Arnold Winkelried" seems to have lived at that time, he was also alive and well after the battle: he was plaintiff in a lawsuit in Stans in 1389, and acted as Landamman (chief magistrate) of Unterwalden in 1417
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  #497  
Old 25.10.2007, 15:07
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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The 27th canton concept has twofold consequences. If the abroad living voter still has ties to Switzerland, why shouldn't he vote (or run) in his old canton? And abroad candidates would need extra money and time (3x4 weeks/year at least) to attend their duties.
Personally, I agree with you and this is also the view of the OSA.
Swiss abroad have the choice of voting in the Gemeinde of last residence or their Heimatort and that helps to retain ties.
It would also be more difficult to implement in the Ständerat than in the Nationalrat, opening up issues such as the representation of BS and BL.

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Speaking of discrimination, there is also progress: The percentage of female parlamentarians has again increased and is now 27.8%. And we have our first black parlamentarian now.
That is positive. Who is the black MP, canton/party?
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  #498  
Old 25.10.2007, 15:34
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Is it possible for a Swiss to give up Swiss nationality?
Yes, it is. One can make a formal request to the home canton.
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  #499  
Old 25.10.2007, 17:13
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep posters]

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Arnis actions asa knight are a myth, or a publicity stunt to whip up nationalistic support in potential White Knights everywhere:
the same as Willy Tell
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  #500  
Old 25.10.2007, 17:47
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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Targetting a group, expelling such a group, scapegoating, blaming, is never a good thing, history within the last 60 years already has taught us that, many, many times, do people never learn?
Great points! Let's not forget the stigmatism of generalization: just because one guy from (insert nationality here) is a thief, all (insert same nationality here) are thieves too...regardless of the facts!

Peace
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