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  #541  
Old 27.04.2008, 00:33
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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Usually, it's not 10 years in the Gemeinde, but in Switzerland or the Canton, and some years in the Gemeinde just before application to citizenship.
Other than the time frame, the a$$kissing process applies?
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  #542  
Old 27.04.2008, 00:38
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

..................

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  #543  
Old 27.04.2008, 00:41
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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If you have the feeling that your interest for the community is asskissing, then you may want to consider just not become Swiss. Logically, showing interest and finding your place in Swiss community would be a natural and positive experience if it leads to a naturalization.

In a Gemeinde, where people actually vote, one could say that you have to campaign. I agree on this one. Otherwise, people say yes or no only by looking at your face picture. Scary thought.

BTW, I already am one. I'm all for loving communities, but this strikes as open to all kinds of abuse. I think I have an idea of what's at stake. Certain people's power trips.
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  #544  
Old 27.04.2008, 00:41
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Re: New SVP Poster

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I admire many things in Switzerland, but the politics here didn't seem to evolve since the 1920s
No, no.. the politics have evolved since the 1920s!.. women were given the vote in the early 1970s.
(50 years after most of the countries I know..)
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  #545  
Old 27.04.2008, 00:46
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

Prudence, are you a robot?
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  #546  
Old 27.04.2008, 01:37
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

.................

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  #547  
Old 27.04.2008, 02:31
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

haha,

No Phos, I'm not a robot.. just a bit slow in learning how to use this thing.. I found the Edit button!! But then the message got posted again in a different spot..?? unfortunately no Delete button..bugger.
So please excuse my quite random posts on this thread!
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  #548  
Old 29.04.2008, 16:49
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

I find the response to the SVP's "black sheep" campaign rather curious. It seems that many people immediately read their intent as racist, but I wonder whether that is really fair.

The concept of "black sheep" (at least in the English-speaking world) is not intrinsically racist in its origin, but serves more as a description of the member(s) of a group with a negative reputation. Exactly how they got that reputation varies, but it traditionally has to do with their actions and/or attitudes, not race or ethnic background (the "black sheep of the family" by definition suggests that the "black sheep" is of the same race/ethnicity as the rest of "the family").

So the "black sheep" theme by itself doesn't seem racist -- unless there is a different way it is normally perceived by the average Swiss (is there?).

Now, as I understand it, the SVP is identifying the "black sheep" specifically and particularly as immigrants convicted of criminal activity. This would still seem to fit the "black sheep" theme without necessarily being racist -- unless the SVP is also (somewhere else?) explicitly identifying only one or more certain race(s) or ethnic group(s) as the "black sheep" (has this happened and I am simply unaware of it?).

Several posts to this thread have already pointed out that a number of Western countries already expel immigrants who are convicted of criminal activity, regardless of race or ethnicity. The concept may be new to some Swiss, but I don't (yet) understand exactly how it comes to be perceived as either racist, radical, or somehow unjust.

So am I missing something? Does the "black sheep" theme traditionally have distinctly racial or ethnic connotations in Swiss culture that are absent elsewhere? Or does the SVP's platform feature content that is explicitly antagonistic to one or more race(s) or ethnic group(s), compelling a similar interpretation of their use of the "black sheep" theme in their campaign?

If the answers to both of the above questions is "no," then the "racist" accusation would seem to be an overreaction. If the answer to either or both questions is "yes," it would go a long way to clarifying the matter if someone could provide corroborating documentation.

Cheers,
Tim
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  #549  
Old 29.04.2008, 16:58
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

I don't think it is racism as much as it is xenophobia. Different words, different context.

Second context, is you can be born and raised in Switzerland without being nationalized. So a foreigner (immigrant in your words) can be someone who was born and raised in Switzerland.
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  #550  
Old 29.04.2008, 16:58
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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Several posts to this thread have already pointed out that a number of Western countries already expel immigrants who are convicted of criminal activity, regardless of race or ethnicity. The concept may be new to some Swiss, but I don't (yet) understand exactly how it comes to be perceived as either racist, radical, or somehow unjust.

Cheers,
Tim
The SVP were not just wanting to kick out the convicted criminal but their entire families even if they were totally innocent of any crimes. I would call that unjust wouldn't you?
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  #551  
Old 29.04.2008, 17:15
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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I don't think it is racism as much as it is xenophobia. Different words, different context.
So people use the terms interchangeably? They definitely have different meanings. (Fear and/or dislike of other ethnic groups isn't automatically a matter of superiority/inferiority.)

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Second context, is you can be born and raised in Switzerland without being nationalized. So a foreigner (immigrant in your words) can be someone who was born and raised in Switzerland.
What are the various status possibilities that may be assigned to someone born and raised in Switzerland without being nationalized? No different at all from, say, his parents who physically immigrated at some point during their lifetimes?
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  #552  
Old 29.04.2008, 17:20
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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The SVP were not just wanting to kick out the convicted criminal but their entire families even if they were totally innocent of any crimes. I would call that unjust wouldn't you?
Yes, that does indeed seem excessive. Do you think more Swiss would accept the proposal if that particular policy were eliminated, or are there other aspects of the campaign that are also perceived as unjust?
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  #553  
Old 29.04.2008, 17:21
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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So people use the terms interchangeably? They definitely have different meanings. (Fear and/or dislike of other ethnic groups isn't automatically a matter of superiority/inferiority.)


What are the various status possibilities that may be assigned to someone born and raised in Switzerland without being nationalized? No different at all from, say, his parents who physically immigrated at some point during their lifetimes?

I agree that racism and xenophia are different and shouldn't have the same meaning but they have the same result (economic and cultural isolation).


I am no expert on the status possibilities, but usually you are citizen or a permanent resident but a permanent resident isn't necessarily permanent.
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  #554  
Old 29.04.2008, 17:48
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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I agree that racism and xenophia are different and shouldn't have the same meaning but they have the same result (economic and cultural isolation).
Still, is the accusation of either racism or xenophobia really fair and accurate in the absence of a racist or xenophobic connotation either inherent in the Swiss perception of "black sheep" or explicit in the SVP platform? In the absence of such, all they seem to be saying is "kick out people who come here and show criminal contempt for the lives and property of others."

(I realize that may be a bit of an oversimplification. I don't like, for example, the idea of expelling whole families on the basis of a single member's crime.)

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I am no expert on the status possibilities, but usually you are citizen or a permanent resident but a permanent resident isn't necessarily permanent.
Please forgive my ignorance, but is the SVP intent on applying the proposed policy equally towards those with permanent resident status and those without -- or (perhaps a better question) are the vast majority of non-citizens typically given permanent resident status, regardless of whether they were born in Switzerland or not (so that there is no official distinction between the status of those Swiss-born and those not)?
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  #555  
Old 29.04.2008, 18:07
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

No, please go ahead and oversimplify. In fact a standard simplification may suffice, as at present I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

dave


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Still, is the accusation of either racism or xenophobia really fair and accurate in the absence of a racist or xenophobic connotation either inherent in the Swiss perception of "black sheep" or explicit in the SVP platform? In the absence of such, ....

(I realize that may be a bit of an oversimplification.
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  #556  
Old 29.04.2008, 18:20
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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No, please go ahead and oversimplify. In fact a standard simplification may suffice, as at present I don't have a clue what you are talking about.
What I'm trying to determine is exactly why the SVP's proposal (particularly with reference to the campaign's use of the "black sheep" theme) is decried as racist by so many, when it doesn't seem to explicitly invoke race. That's about as simple as I can state it.
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  #557  
Old 29.04.2008, 18:22
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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What I'm trying to determine is exactly why the SVP's proposal (particularly with reference to the campaign's use of the "black sheep" theme) is decried as racist by so many, when it doesn't seem to explicitly invoke race. That's about as simple as I can state it.
if you were here and you looked into the real meaning of the politics at the time, you'd quickly realise that it is not as benign as it might initially appear.

since you're not, I urge you to read this whole thread and the racist one (which is closed) and see what you think afterwards.
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  #558  
Old 29.04.2008, 18:48
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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  #559  
Old 29.04.2008, 18:56
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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What I'm trying to determine is exactly why the SVP's proposal (particularly with reference to the campaign's use of the "black sheep" theme) is decried as racist by so many, when it doesn't seem to explicitly invoke race. That's about as simple as I can state it.
Basicaly, the poster is only as racist as you want it to be. Some people want the poster to be racist so that they can look like human-rights heroes by denouncing it, and push their polical agenda by the same token. Others are uncomfortable with race relations and when they hear "black sheep" they think "black dude", unconfortable with their own latent racism their react defensively and embark on a racist witch-hunt.
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  #560  
Old 29.04.2008, 19:06
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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Please, get real
I'm trying. (Really!)

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Those of us who follows swiss politics in the original language(s) know that the black sheep is not a figure of style... the language used by SVP does not allow any doubt about their positive view on race discrimination as well as a long list of other discriminations.
I happen to follow Swiss politics in English (mostly) and some German, but haven't come across examples of "the language used by SVP" to which you refer. I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying the "language" you describe apparently hasn't appeared in the news coverage I've seen, which is puzzling at best, and suspicious at worst.

Perhaps this explains why racism seems such a strong reaction to me. Without first-hand exposure to SVP's explicitly expressed "positive view on race discrimination," I have no way of knowing how accurate are terms like "racial tone," and "xenophobic subtext," and "racial overtones."

Could anyone here possibly cite some webbed content documenting SVP's "positive view on race discrimination"?
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