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  #561  
Old 29.04.2008, 20:18
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

Here's another way this issue could be clarified by those more familiar with SVP's history and character (the quote is from a while ago)...

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The SVP regularly use images that *can* be harmless but when associated with the subject matter can also be construed in a racist way. They are quite clever at tapping into these feelings. If it happened only once by pure coincidence fair enough, but that's not the case.
Could anyone provide some insight (and/or links to examples) regarding the other times/ways SVP has "used images that *can* be harmless but when associated with the subject matter can also be construed in a racist way"?

(I also found Nairda's earlier "ranking" post enlightening.)
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  #562  
Old 29.04.2008, 20:45
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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Basicaly, the poster is only as racist as you want it to be. Some people want the poster to be racist so that they can look like human-rights heroes by denouncing it, and push their polical agenda by the same token. Others are uncomfortable with race relations and when they hear "black sheep" they think "black dude", unconfortable with their own latent racism their react defensively and embark on a racist witch-hunt.
While I may be tempted to adopt your perspective, I'm not convinced that I would be forming an adequately-informed opinion (and a few others around here obviously concur).

So, in the interest of giving them the benefit of the doubt, it seems fair to provide those who would disagree with you an opportunity to document such things as SVP's "positive view on race discrimination" and other times/ways SVP has "regularly used images that *can* be harmless but when associated with the subject matter can also be construed in a racist way."
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  #563  
Old 29.04.2008, 22:40
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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Basicaly, the poster is only as racist as you want it to be. Some people want the poster to be racist so that they can look like human-rights heroes by denouncing it, and push their polical agenda by the same token. Others are uncomfortable with race relations and when they hear "black sheep" they think "black dude", unconfortable with their own latent racism their react defensively and embark on a racist witch-hunt.
And I know first hand that some Swiss people see this and feel it speaks to their fears of being over-run by immigrants of other races, and so support the SVP fervently. Please don't insult our intelligence by denying that.
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  #564  
Old 29.04.2008, 23:01
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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Please, get real : Those of us who follows swiss politics in the original language(s) know that the black sheep is not a figure of style. The SVP people speak very openly about cultural determinism. For them, individuals have no part in the evolution of identity and social behaviour. In debates on TV like Arena, the language used by SVP does not allow any doubt about their positive view on race discrimination as well as a long list of other discriminations.
I must say that I read your post a few times, and am having trouble getting to your point. For example, what is "Figure of Style" and "positive view on race discrimination"? May I try to simplify by asking you a Yes/No question:

Are you saying that the SVP is openly racist or not?
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  #565  
Old 30.04.2008, 18:19
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

This was from the text along with the 'Grabbing Hands' picture in the local paper (Anzeiger Luzern) today:

"Jahr fuer Jahr werden mehr und mehr Auslaender eingebuergert. Jedes Jahr so viele, wie die Stadt Luzern Einwohner hat. Und die Gerichte wollen, dass die Einbuergerung noch mehr erleichtert wird! Die Folgen? Immer mehr Kriminelle und Sozialhilfemissbraucher werden eingebuergert. Und: Bald bestimmen die eingebuergerten Auslaender an der Urne ueber die Schweiz!..."
[Year in, year out, more and more foreigners become naturalised. Each year as many as the number of residents in Stadt Luzern. And the courts want the naturalisation (process) to become easier! The consequences: more and more criminals and welfare abusers will be naturalised. And: soon the naturalised foreigners will be deciding at the ballot box!]

so:
-yes, they are playing on people's fears about being overrun by foreigners
-it's focussed on foreigners and not un-naturalised 'Swiss' people
-'foreigners' = criminals and welfare abusers.

Shame really. I come from a city with a very multicultural society and saw nothing but advantages..
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  #566  
Old 30.04.2008, 18:28
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

In my eyes, SVP voters are a bunch of Nazis. sorry.

Their recent calls for changes in the way the Federal Council is appointed are similar to what the NSDAP pushed through. And they're simply unconstitutional. Up until about a year ago the SVP were just a bunch of primitive thugs and fear-mongers - now they're developing towards becoming a danger to the constitutional state.

I just read that among the social stratum that only has an apprenticeship as their highest degree of education, more than 40% are SVP voters. I'm really starting to worry here.
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  #567  
Old 30.04.2008, 18:59
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

Those posters do scare me as an easily identifiable foreigner. I feel like spraying something on them. How about "One world one people"? Would I get thrown out of Switzerland if I get caught?
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  #568  
Old 30.04.2008, 19:00
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

................

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  #569  
Old 30.04.2008, 21:30
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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The SVP says openly that migrants should not stay in Switzerland, and not come here in the first place. They are too clever to explain their concepts. There is never any "why" in the SVP's rhetorics.

If you are looking for race vocab, you won't find anything. Lesson one in rethorics is to define your own vocab and make people use them the way you want it to be used.
Could you (or anyone else here) document where SVP has openly said migrants should not come in the first place?

What you say may well be true, but your argument by its very nature seems conveniently beyond proof or disproof. (Such is the inherent nature of a positive claim accompanied by the promise that "you won't find anything.")

(Incidentally, I'm still awaiting documentation of SVP's "positive view on race discrimination" and SVP's "regular" use of "images that *can* be harmless but when associated with the subject matter can also be construed in a racist way.")

I realize this subject tends to generate a lot of heat, and I honestly don't mean to "stir up the pot" for no good reason. SVP surely has a history and reputation that many Swiss (and many more immigrants) dislike. Their platform is anything but "politically correct." But sometimes it seems the responses to it sound no less hysterical and hyperbolic than the SVP themselves, which only puts rational dialog even further out of reach.

Having never lived in Switzerland for longer than a couple months at a time, I don't presume to tell long-term immigrants what to think or feel, but trying to have some understanding even of an unseemly point-of-view can sometimes go a long way towards effective problem resolution.

Living in Texas, I am surrounded by the din of voices clamoring for the forcible eviction of all the "illegal immigrants" who have poured into the state in recent decades. While people like to (and believe they have a right to) protect and preserve what they think is theirs (including things like culture and way of life), on the other hand, if the anti-immigrant crowd really got their wish, many lives, families, and communities would be needlessly (and perhaps violently) damaged, and many more jobs would be left vacant than there are "locals" willing to fill them.

Likewise, some folks tend to take much for granted (or at least an entitlement) upon taking up residence in someone else's homeland. While common sense may dictate that they deserve certain rights or concessions, the attitude with which they seek accommodation can make the difference between peaceful coexistence (or even measurable integration) and hostile division.

But whether in Texas or Switzerland, it seems to me that matters are only driven further from peaceful resolution when potentially inflammatory terms (e.g., racist, Nazi) are invoked to characterize a cause, the core motive of which might be less inherently evil and more well-intended (even if misguided or overzealous) than many may be willing to admit. Anything that further polarizes people on a controversial matter only prolongs the controversy, further delaying the kind of civil dialog necessary for effective moderation and compromise.

Someone once said: "Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, when you criticize him, he won't be able to hear you -- and you'll have his shoes."
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  #570  
Old 30.04.2008, 23:45
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

................

Last edited by ElieDeLeuze; 09.07.2009 at 20:56.
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  #571  
Old 01.05.2008, 00:59
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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... They are too clever to explain their concepts. ...

If you are looking for race vocab, you won't find anything. Lesson one in rethorics is to define your own vocab and make people use them the way you want it to be used.
But WE aren't so stupid.
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  #572  
Old 10.05.2008, 21:34
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

Saw some in Bern with "SVP=Swastika" graffiti on them.
"Not interested is Swiss passport" would make a nice T.Shirt if you are a foreign looking person. The stares it would generate from SVP type would be priceless
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  #573  
Old 11.05.2008, 17:17
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new SVP campaign

Dear all,
I moved to Switzerland 5 months ago. I’m young, fit, honest (modest) working lady. I’m totally legal here; pay my taxes helping the whole Swiss society (and myself while living here of course). Switzerland did not invest on my education (I have a top 10 MBA) neither on my kids, since I still don’t have them and will probably not spend a penny with me for retirement since I will probably retire in a warmer sunnier place. I’m trying to mingle with the Swiss people, adapt to their uses, culture, learn their language and really integrate myself. Despite of all that, I was really annoyed by the current SVP campaign (poster bellow) but worse than that I fund their leaflet yesterday AT MY MAILBOX with the graphs of how many people joined Switzerland from different countries as this would be a crime and/or an indication on how to recognize the ‘good and bad’ people. Am I the only one disgusted with this campaign? I know this is not the opinion of the majority of the Swiss society, but isn’t alarming that these ideas are attracting so many followers lately and a growing space in the media? Any comments on how we, ‘the foreigners’ should deal with this growing Swiss xenophobia?
Tks for the insights and have a lovely long weekend,
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  #574  
Old 11.05.2008, 17:25
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

It's a recycled poster from some time ago, star20.

I'll post an answer to this thread as soon as I feel like writing a really long text...
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  #575  
Old 11.05.2008, 17:28
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Re: new SVP campaign

I don't think there is anything to deal with since these campaigns aren't aimed at the likes of you or I. Neither of us are interested in a Swiss passport or Swiss social/welfare benefits. I think the Swiss (including SVP voters) do realise that without the skills of foreign professionals their economic power houses would grind to a halt.
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  #576  
Old 11.05.2008, 20:07
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

I felt disgusted too. There is a poster like that close to my appartment, and recently a smiling lady rushed to give me the same leaflet. Funny that I don't look swiss at all, I am more like one of those hands in the drawing -- so I have no idea of what was on her mind. I am legal, I work here, and I pay huge taxes.

As much as I like my life in here, I'd be very happy to leave to a more welcoming country.
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  #577  
Old 12.05.2008, 12:06
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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I felt disgusted too. There is a poster like that close to my appartment, and recently a smiling lady rushed to give me the same leaflet. Funny that I don't look swiss at all, I am more like one of those hands in the drawing -- so I have no idea of what was on her mind. I am legal, I work here, and I pay huge taxes.
When I was out shopping the other day, the SVP people were working the streets, handing out leaflets, cider and cookies with Swiss flags and trying to draw more supporters to their *cause.*

Like you, I don't look Swiss either, and was surprised when I was approached. I gave the woman who approached me a big smile and told her *Ich bin Amerikanish*
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  #578  
Old 12.05.2008, 12:30
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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... told her *Ich bin Amerikanish*
Personally, I'd have said it in English.
Loudly.
And maybe added "and stick your passport up your 4rse"
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  #579  
Old 12.05.2008, 12:34
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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Personally, I'd have said it in English.
Loudly.
And maybe added "and stick your passport up your 4rse"
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  #580  
Old 12.05.2008, 12:52
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Re: Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

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and I pay huge taxes.

.
maybe you should change your accountant ?

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