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  #41  
Old 24.07.2007, 17:06
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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By the way,



Have you?

Take a look at the first statement in bold on page 12 of the ausschaffungsinitiative-d.pdf available at:
http://www.typo3start.ch/sites/aussc...itiative-d.pdf

It is pretty scary stuff (I am referring, of course, to the statement that Ausslaender that do not want to integrate should be kicked out!)! Now what, are they going to kick out foreigners who still want to go to their own churches, who speak their own language at home, who criticize Switzerland, because these are signs of "not wanting to integrate"?

While this is not the main point of the initiative, the fact that this is the background thinking /justification for it should raise many red flags to the rational thinker....

Reading the rest of the article, it just reads like a repressive manifesto (take a look, for instance, at p17, where prostitution is considered one crime for which these foreigners should be deported). My german is not that great, but it appears to me that not only "murder", but any kind of homicide is included as well (go back to where I said you run over a kid chasing a soccer ball, please, curiously this is used as an example, but the driver is not any old "foreigner", but a "Manager". Wonder if the veredict as to what constitutes "deportation permissible" homicide would change if the driver were not a manager, but a factory worker) Take a look at the manifesto yourself, and then tell me, whether it still sounds like a good idea.

Yikes.
It’s an established principle that a court interprets the law by what is written in the legislation and nothing else so that a government cannot say what they intended it to mean if there is a dispute. The proposed initiative uses the word murder.

Your example of someone driving a car and and running over a kid would only be murder if it could be proved that the driver deliberately intended to kill the kid, otherwise it would not be murder.

Whatever is said in the supporting document the fact is that it is not part of the initiative itself. You should consider the wording of the initiative itself when making a decision.

(This comment is not part of the Swiss situation but “…foreigners who do not integrate should be kicked out” would get a lot of support in the UK).
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  #42  
Old 24.07.2007, 17:12
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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It’s an established principle that a court interprets the law by what is written in the legislation and nothing else
Hmm...you must perhaps be one of the lucky few people on this planet who comes from a country where that statement is actually true.

Having lived in several countries where this is not true, you will understand my intrinsic skepticism as to this "established principle"....


Ho hum, anyway, who cares. As a foreigner I don't get to vote on this initiative anyway, so it matters not a whit whether I agree or disagree, think it is despicable or about time, or whatever.
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  #43  
Old 24.07.2007, 17:40
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

I don't know about german, but the term "black sheep" is commonly used in both french and english to describe a bad guy. It has no racist undertone what so ever. Yet in your outrage you all choose to associate bad guy with black immigrants. There's nothing wrong with the poster, only with people looking at it.
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  #44  
Old 24.07.2007, 17:42
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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Hmm...you must perhaps be one of the lucky few people on this planet who comes from a country where that statement is actually true.

Having lived in several countries where this is not true, you will understand my intrinsic skepticism as to this "established principle"....


Ho hum, anyway, who cares. As a foreigner I don't get to vote on this initiative anyway, so it matters not a whit whether I agree or disagree, think it is despicable or about time, or whatever.
I take your point. I’ve never lived in a country like that but, of course, I think we all know that there are those where the courts are under the control of the governments and interpret the law in a somewhat ‘twisted’ fashion !

I know the use of black and white sheep is offensive to some people but to those of us who are getting a bit ‘stone age’ we don’t think of it in that way. When we were kids black and white sheep had no racist connotation. A black sheet was someone who was a bad person. We called a member of my own family the black sheep of the family because of something he did but, of course, it had no racial meaning. It’s all in the mind.
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Old 24.07.2007, 17:44
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

Bear in mind, this initiative is being put forward now because there is a general election in October and it raises the SVP's profile amongst their supporters.
Assuming it gets enough signatures, the government will no doubt put forward an alternative more moderate proposal.
The Swiss will vote for the moderate option. That's the Swiss way.
In the meantime, they'll be months and months of adverts showing white sheep booting out black sheep.
Unless the SVP run out of cash.

Personally, I think locking up convicted criminals is more of a deterrent than deporting the foreign ones. It's the same psyche that makes expats comply with regulations they feel are silly, whereas at home they'd probably tell the council to sod off and hang the consequences. Tell me I'm wrong. <smilie for flood gates opening>
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  #46  
Old 24.07.2007, 17:45
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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I don't know about german, but the term "black sheep" is commonly used in both french and english to describe a bad guy. It has no racist undertone what so ever. Yet in your outrage you all choose to associate bad guy with black immigrants. There's nothing wrong with the poster, only with people looking at it.
I wish the world was like you, mate...
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  #47  
Old 24.07.2007, 17:45
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

Yes, we are all familiar with the "black sheep" terminology. This is the English forum afterall. It's still inappropriate. And I don't believe anyone was outraged. However, the party who put forth the initiative is known for wanting to keep Switzerland Swiss. And I, 100%, believe that the cartoon has intentional racial overtones.

This would not be acceptable in the US, it would be appcompanied with a significant backlash amongst minority populations.

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I don't know about german, but the term "black sheep" is commonly used in both french and english to describe a bad guy. It has no racist undertone what so ever. Yet in your outrage you all choose to associate bad guy with black immigrants. There's nothing wrong with the poster, only with people looking at it.
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  #48  
Old 24.07.2007, 17:50
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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I don't know about german, but the term "black sheep" is commonly used in both french and english to describe a bad guy. It has no racist undertone what so ever. Yet in your outrage you all choose to associate bad guy with black immigrants. There's nothing wrong with the poster, only with people looking at it.
The SVP regularly use images that *can* be harmless but when associated with the subject matter can also be construed in a racist way. They are quite clever at tapping into these feelings. If it happened only once by pure coincidence fair enough, but that's not the case.
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Old 24.07.2007, 18:14
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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They are quite clever at tapping into these feelings.
the picture is brilliant on many levels. Ultimately that's my point.
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Old 24.07.2007, 18:16
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

Post #1 does not equate with post #2.


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the picture is brilliant on many levels. Ultimately that's my point.
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  #51  
Old 24.07.2007, 18:45
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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Personally, I think locking up convicted criminals is more of a deterrent than deporting the foreign ones. It's the same psyche that makes expats comply with regulations they feel are silly, whereas at home they'd probably tell the council to sod off and hang the consequences. Tell me I'm wrong. <smilie for flood gates opening>
I think you will find that the deportation would come after they have served their prison sentence.
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Old 24.07.2007, 18:48
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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the party who put forth the initiative is known for wanting to keep Switzerland Swiss. And I, 100%, believe that the cartoon has intentional racial overtones.
I'm repeating this anecdote I posted elsewhere as I believe it's relevant to the SVP's view of Switzerland.

I saw a news item on SF1 earlier this year after someone of Indian origin had been elected to the Zug parliament on the alternative list. They asked an SVP politician what he thought of his new colleague. He said it looked a bit odd having someone of his colour in the parliament at first, but when he opened his mouth and spoke perfect Swiss German there was no longer an issue, as he was obviously one of us.

I think that says a lot about the Swiss-German attitude to race and to foreigners.
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Old 24.07.2007, 18:59
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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I'm repeating this anecdote I posted elsewhere as I believe it's relevant to the SVP's view of Switzerland.

I saw a news item on SF1 earlier this year after someone of Indian origin had been elected to the Zug parliament on the alternative list. They asked an SVP politician what he thought of his new colleague. He said it looked a bit odd having someone of his colour in the parliament at first, but when he opened his mouth and spoke perfect Swiss German there was no longer an issue, as he was obviously one of us.

I think that says a lot about the Swiss-German attitude to race and to foreigners.

You mean their attitude is generaly positive and they accept foreigners as long make an effort to speak the language and integrate ?

you're doing your cause no favour.
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Old 24.07.2007, 19:05
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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I'm repeating this anecdote I posted elsewhere as I believe it's relevant to the SVP's view of Switzerland.

I saw a news item on SF1 earlier this year after someone of Indian origin had been elected to the Zug parliament on the alternative list. They asked an SVP politician what he thought of his new colleague. He said it looked a bit odd having someone of his colour in the parliament at first, but when he opened his mouth and spoke perfect Swiss German there was no longer an issue, as he was obviously one of us.

I think that says a lot about the Swiss-German attitude to race and to foreigners.
So why is it that people who are born and have grown up in Switzerland (but don't have a Swiss parent) are still considered foreigners?
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Old 24.07.2007, 19:09
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

It's a global society these days. But. . . . . .

You missed the point.

The fact that it was even mentioned that he looked different is a bit strange to me . . . . . . . .would he have been so receptive if the Swiss german was spoken with an accent?



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You mean their attitude is generaly positive and they accept foreigners as long make an effort to speak the language and integrate ?

you're doing your cause no favour.
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Old 24.07.2007, 19:26
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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I think you will find that the deportation would come after they have served their prison sentence.
The point I was trying to make was that I believe that the likelihood of being caught and receiving an appropriate prison sentence is more of a deterrent in itself than the threat of deportation thereafter.

Presumably, many of the serious offences cited by the SVP (e.g. rape and murder) carry long prison sentences. Given that for the offender the purpose of prison is punishment and rehabilitation, there seems little benefit in then deporting that person where, if they were Swiss, they would be considered suitably punished, rehabilitated and a fit and proper member of society once again.

The deportation is of benefit if the purpose is primarily to remove some foreigners from the country.
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Old 24.07.2007, 19:28
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

Does anybody know what the current requirements for deportation are in Switzerland? I can't believe they don't already have something in place.
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Old 24.07.2007, 20:28
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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The point I was trying to make was that I believe that the likelihood of being caught and receiving an appropriate prison sentence is more of a deterrent in itself than the threat of deportation thereafter.

Presumably, many of the serious offences cited by the SVP (e.g. rape and murder) carry long prison sentences. Given that for the offender the purpose of prison is punishment and rehabilitation, there seems little benefit in then deporting that person where, if they were Swiss, they would be considered suitably punished, rehabilitated and a fit and proper member of society once again.

The deportation is of benefit if the purpose is primarily to remove some foreigners from the country.
Hmm, not quite. Even after being released from prison in the UK, several things are still barred to you, some for life. You also have to 'spend' your crime, ie, for some time after you leave prison, you must declare that you have had a conviction. You will also never serve in some government branches, be barred from certain other jobs and never, ever own a firearms licence or even own an air rifle.
Also, if you're a foreigner living in another country, you're sort of on approval and could be sent back at any point for any misdemeanour. It's part of living abroad that you have to take into account, especially if you do engage in criminal activity.
Now, bearing in mind the severity of the offences above (with the possible exception of the benefits one, that's not as bad a crime, more taking advantage of hospitality, which a lot people really do take seriously), why would you want to keep people who were guilty of those offences. Generally, they would attract long sentences, so giving plenty of time for appeals, so even miscarriages of justice should come to light in that time, accomanied with an appropriate apology.
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Old 24.07.2007, 21:02
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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Hmm, not quite. Even after being released from prison in the UK, several things are still barred to you, some for life. You also have to 'spend' your crime, ie, for some time after you leave prison, you must declare that you have had a conviction. You will also never serve in some government branches, be barred from certain other jobs and never, ever own a firearms licence or even own an air rifle.
Also, if you're a foreigner living in another country, you're sort of on approval and could be sent back at any point for any misdemeanour. It's part of living abroad that you have to take into account, especially if you do engage in criminal activity.
Now, bearing in mind the severity of the offences above (with the possible exception of the benefits one, that's not as bad a crime, more taking advantage of hospitality, which a lot people really do take seriously), why would you want to keep people who were guilty of those offences. Generally, they would attract long sentences, so giving plenty of time for appeals, so even miscarriages of justice should come to light in that time, accomanied with an appropriate apology.
I fully accept the points about the offence remaining on record until spent and that some offences should always remain on record.
However, having spent many years and lots of money rehabilitating someone in prison (perhaps skilling them for a role that is much needed in the economy), on assessment deciding that they are now a fit person to be released (with the caveats you've mentioned, as would apply to any Swiss), I can see no benefit in then deporting them because they are foreign. If they are fit to be released they are fit to stay. Why should they be punished, rehabilitated and then punished again (by deportation) for the same offence.
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Old 24.07.2007, 21:11
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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I saw a news item on SF1 earlier this year after someone of Indian origin had been elected to the Zug parliament on the alternative list. They asked an SVP politician what he thought of his new colleague. He said it looked a bit odd having someone of his colour in the parliament at first, but when he opened his mouth and spoke perfect Swiss German there was no longer an issue, as he was obviously one of us.
I think that says a lot about the Swiss-German attitude to race and to foreigners.
OK, I can't comment on Romandie or Ticino, but this is my explanation of that quote and how I feel many Swiss-Germans perhaps sub-conciously think. This is not intended to be offensive in anyway to anyone whatever their background or to Swiss people.

Whilst believing all people to be essentially equal, if asked to rank people in order:
1. Swiss born and bred in your village or district.
2. Swiss from your Kanton.
3. Other Swiss-Germans (not included in 4 below).
4. Swiss from that place where they think they are better than you (usually Zurich).
5. French Swiss.
6. Italian Swiss.
7. Any foreigner who has a reasonable command of Swiss-German.
8. White foreigners from affluent countries.
9. White foreigners from less affluent countries.
10. Non-white foreigners from affluent countries.
11. Non-white foreigners from less affluent countries.

If you are non-white you will be at the bottom of the list until you demonstrate your citizenship and/or language, at which point your colour will become insignificant and you will be promoted up the list. If you speak the local Dialekt, even better. This is definitely a good point in as much as it demonstrates an acceptance of people who are integrated, however until you become known in your locality or workplace your colour will always announce itself first. This is more of a problem with strangers including people in authority, such as the police.
If you are second or third generation, but without citizenship, you'll most probably be at 7. It's a big leap to citizenship and won't be easy. Speaking perfect Dialekt puts you well ahead of other foreigners (such as Germans who "won't" learn the language) and that's something you should be grateful for.
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