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-   -   Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters] (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/10275-security-creation-initiative-aka-svp-black-sheep-grabbing-hands-posters.html)

Blonaybear 24.07.2007 21:11

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 86646)
I fully accept the points about the offence remaining on record until spent and that some offences should always remain on record.
However, having spent many years and lots of money rehabilitating someone in prison (perhaps skilling them for a role that is much needed in the economy), on assessment deciding that they are now a fit person to be released (with the caveats you've mentioned, as would apply to any Swiss), I can see no benefit in then deporting them because they are foreign. If they are fit to be released they are fit to stay. Why should they be punished, rehabilitated and then punished again (by deportation) for the same offence.

That are not held until they are considered fit to be released but released at the end of their sentence. If the sentence was, say, 5 years prison and deportation then that's what the sentence is.

Blonaybear 24.07.2007 21:53

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 86603)
Does anybody know what the current requirements for deportation are in Switzerland? I can't believe they don't already have something in place.

Iíve spent quite some time trying to find the answer to this and I think the position is that a court can order deportation when it passes sentence or, when the sentence has been completed it is also possible that the authorities can deport the criminal then. As I say, Iím not sure about this but I will try and clarify further.

The initiative would mean that if a foreigner commits any of the crimes listed then being excluded from Switzerland for 5 to 15 years would automatically become part of the sentence.

Sentences in Switzerland tend to be shorter than in many countries and I suppose you could say that, for example, 15 years for murder plus 15 years banned from the country is a lot lighter than 99 years that you might get in some American states or 30 years that you could get in the UK.



Polorise 25.07.2007 14:19

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Interestingly enough, in this mornings 20 Minuten, one of the lead articles is around forcing parents of yoof/chav/scum (my terminology) to hand over some folding stuff if their little cherubs are under 18 & are caught tagging/dealing drugs or just being a general pest. This is being promoted by the Bernese Kanton Polizei.
Am sitting in Cafe Nero drinking a Mocha (:msntongue:) & don't have time to frivolously waste on doing a search, could someone with better German than me please have a look ?

chemgoddess 25.07.2007 14:25

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Ah, so perhaps this would make it mandatory for a variety of violations whereas in the past it was up to the discretion of the court?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86658)
Iíve spent quite some time trying to find the answer to this and I think the position is that a court can order deportation when it passes sentence or, when the sentence has been completed it is also possible that the authorities can deport the criminal then. As I say, Iím not sure about this but I will try and clarify further.

The initiative would mean that if a foreigner commits any of the crimes listed then being excluded from Switzerland for 5 to 15 years would automatically become part of the sentence.

Sentences in Switzerland tend to be shorter than in many countries and I suppose you could say that, for example, 15 years for murder plus 15 years banned from the country is a lot lighter than 99 years that you might get in some American states or 30 years that you could get in the UK.




Blonaybear 25.07.2007 14:33

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86658)
Iíve spent quite some time trying to find the answer to this and I think the position is that a court can order deportation when it passes sentence or, when the sentence has been completed it is also possible that the authorities can deport the criminal then. As I say, Iím not sure about this but I will try and clarify further.

Having looked at bit further I found cases at the local tribunal where foreigners who were not resident in CH who were convicted of a crime and their sentence included a ban on entering Switzerland again for a number of years.

For those who have residence permits it seems that they can be deported when their sentence is spent and it appears to be a cantional matter. Presumably they can withdraw the permit or it may expire while they are sevring their sentence.

chemgoddess 25.07.2007 14:37

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Kinda what I figured, I just couldn't find any info in English. Which still brings me to the point of "What exactly is the SVP trying to put forward and what are their motives"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86821)
Having looked at bit further I found cases at the local tribunal where foreigners who were not resident in CH who were convicted of a crime and their sentence included a ban on entering Switzerland again for a number of years.

For those who have residence permits it seems that they can be deported when their sentence is spent and it appears to be a cantional matter. Presumably they can withdraw the permit or it may expire while they are sevring their sentence.


Blonaybear 25.07.2007 14:41

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 86812)
Ah, so perhaps this would make it mandatory for a variety of violations whereas in the past it was up to the discretion of the court?

That would appear to be the case as far as I can tell.

Also came across this:

Switzerland has the highest proportion of foreigners in Europe, about 20% of the population, but they account for 48.9% of those convicted under criminal law.



Lob 25.07.2007 14:42

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 86823)
Kinda what I figured, I just couldn't find any info in English. Which still brings me to the point of "What exactly is the SVP trying to put forward and what are their motives"

"undesirables, out"?

Check out the SVP forum with gems like this... and the thread through Google Translate

gbn 25.07.2007 14:57

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86827)
That would appear to be the case as far as I can tell.

Also came across this:

Switzerland has the highest proportion of foreigners in Europe, about 20% of the population, but they account for 48.9% of those convicted under criminal law.



This could easily be a statistic such as:
10% of the US population is black, but 35% of the prison population is black.
(made up figures but same principle)

Are blacks/foreigners/scapegoat group really any more criminally minded, or just have more police focus, or more poverty, or whatever...

Edit:
I've seen threads here where the police assume that white, middle aged male driver must be at fault in a car accident.
Criminal! Chuck him out! Make Swiss roads safe again for geriatric old ladies!

AbFab 25.07.2007 15:34

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gbn (Post 86833)
This could easily be a statistic such as:
10% of the US population is black, but 35% of the prison population is black.
(made up figures but same principle)

Are blacks/foreigners/scapegoat group really any more criminally minded, or just have more police focus, or more poverty, or whatever...

Edit:
I've seen threads here where the police assume that white, middle aged male driver must be at fault in a car accident.
Criminal! Chuck him out! Make Swiss roads safe again for geriatric old ladies!

The "or whatever" could be that they don't run away fast enough. But most likely is simply that blacks commit more crimes. Or would you argue that the figures showing that drivers under 25 have more accidents is in fact the police's fault too...

chemgoddess 25.07.2007 15:45

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Well, considering I don't know what exactly is included in "commiting more crimes". . . . .Is that based upon actual convictions? Is it based upon prison numbers? Is it based upon arrests? There are a million factors that go into play for each of those. However, the whiter your skin and the more money you have the less likely you are to 1) get arrested 2) get convicted and 3) go to jail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbFab (Post 86849)
The "or whatever" could be that they don't run away fast enough. But most likely is simply that blacks commit more crimes. Or would you argue that the figures showing that drivers under 25 have more accidents is in fact the police's fault too...


Blonaybear 25.07.2007 15:55

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 86823)
"What exactly is the SVP trying to put forward and what are their motives"

Who knows what the motive may be. Does it matter ? You should surely consider the initiative as it stands and not who proposed it. Is it a good proposition ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lob Rockster (Post 86828)
"undesirables, out"?

Undesirables being convicted murders, rapists, drug traffickers, people traffickers and social benefit fraudsters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 86855)
Well, considering I don't know what exactly is included in "commiting more crimes". . . . .Is that based upon actual convictions? Is it based upon prison numbers? Is it based upon arrests? There are a million factors that go into play for each of those. However, the whiter your skin and the more money you have the less likely you are to 1) get arrested 2) get convicted and 3) go to jail.

And, perhaps, commit a crime in the first place ?

Colonelboris 25.07.2007 16:01

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I remember when some pressure groups in the UK went beserk when one of the high-ranking copper said that 75% of all crime in London was thought to be done by a small minority of black youths. He was just quoting a statistic, but it really hit the fan over that. when I'm not at work and in constant fear of being found playing on the internet, I'll try and look it up...

Blonaybear 25.07.2007 16:08

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Colonelboris (Post 86864)
I remember when some pressure groups in the UK went beserk when one of the high-ranking copper said that 75% of all crime in London was thought to be done by a small minority of black youths. He was just quoting a statistic, but it really hit the fan over that. when I'm not at work and in constant fear of being found playing on the internet, I'll try and look it up...

I remember that one.
Also remember Enoch Powell MP who warned that if the UK did not stem the flow of immigrants the streets would flow with blood. He had to resign because of his comments and we didn't do anything about immigration and the streets did flow with blood (Brixton riots etc etc).

AbFab 25.07.2007 16:35

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 86855)
Well, considering I don't know what exactly is included in "commiting more crimes". . . . .Is that based upon actual convictions? Is it based upon prison numbers? Is it based upon arrests? There are a million factors that go into play for each of those. However, the whiter your skin and the more money you have the less likely you are to 1) get arrested 2) get convicted and 3) go to jail.

You forgot number 4):
Less likely to commit a crime...

gbn 25.07.2007 16:57

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I'm not saying whether it's true or not, just beware of statistics.

I happen to believe that the culture, poverty, whatever of some groups will cause them to view criminal activity as more acceptable than others.
No names, no pack drill.

So some groups commit more crime. Yes, I agree.
I also assume for some (whether small or high %) of this group, the assumption that they'll commit crime causes them to do so.
"In for penny, in for pound" or maybe "well I'll be treated like a criminal anyway..."

I'm no bleeding heart, just suspicious of how statistics are used.

Nairda 26.07.2007 14:46

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AbFab (Post 86849)
But most likely is simply that blacks commit more crimes.

Scapegoat one group, target resources against that group, throw in some discriminatory attitudes at various levels of the criminal justice system (police, courts, prison, probation), pay less attention to white collar crime (such as city financial fraud) committed by the those with more money and influence and low and behold, blacks/foreigners/scapegoats commit more crimes, leading to posters of white sheep kicking out black sheep, more scapegoating, more focusing of resources against blacks/foreigners etc etc.
Of course it's nice and simple to assume that the only thing wrong is those scapegoated, which neatly justifies their scapegoating.

Nairda 26.07.2007 14:49

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86869)
I remember that one.
Also remember Enoch Powell MP who warned that if the UK did not stem the flow of immigrants the streets would flow with blood. He had to resign because of his comments and we didn't do anything about immigration and the streets did flow with blood (Brixton riots etc etc).

Enoch Powell was right and the SVP are right is the perfect analogy.
I wouldn't vote for Enoch and I shan't vote for the SVP initiative.

Blonaybear 26.07.2007 15:10

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
The proposed initiative would mean that foreigners, who have been granted permission to reside in this country, would automatically loose that right for between 5 and 15 years if they are convicted of certain serious crimes, as detailed above.



Do you think this is unreasonable ?

magyir 26.07.2007 18:46

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Might go for it if there was a similar restriction on travel imposed on the Swiss for similar crimes ie no travel for them outside CH for the same periods for similar sentences/crimes.


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