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-   -   Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters] (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/10275-security-creation-initiative-aka-svp-black-sheep-grabbing-hands-posters.html)

Guest 16.08.2007 13:36

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polorise (Post 93441)
Seems the knuckle draggers at the SVP are getting a little smarter. Flying into Kloten yesterday evening, I saw something quite surprising. Taking a leaf out of Syngenta's book, they have a planting on the approach top the runway :



three bauers were siting in the row in front of me & started in on "Das stimmt" etc & made a couple of really crasss remarks ... I felt rather sorry for the elderly Jewish gent sitting next to me, who was the obvious target of their jibes. Wankers :msnmad:

Has anyone else noticed this.

What puzzles me is that these sorts of things are even allowed at all. Surely CH has proven that it is not as progressive as one would think... hence does this really fall under some freedom of expression clause.

I can think of lots of other examples of countries with progressive democracies who outlaw public displays such as this... why is CH any different? (given that they have just as shameful a history as any other modern western democracy)

Lob 16.08.2007 14:05

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBehaving (Post 89151)
:D no, never!

Just do as the JUSO (Young SP) recommend and send the empty forms back to the SVP...my mum did it this morning, she was laughing all the way to the post office...

I can confirm my mate went a little postal with the pritt stick before sending his back. "Prise that one open, Bar Stewards!" I think he said as he rammed it into the post box ;)

AbFab 16.08.2007 14:08

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DNAMan (Post 93598)
What puzzles me is that these sorts of things are even allowed at all. Surely CH has proven that it is not as progressive as one would think... hence does this really fall under some freedom of expression clause.

I can think of lots of other examples of countries with progressive democracies who outlaw public displays such as this... why is CH any different? (given that they have just as shameful a history as any other modern western democracy)

It would be an odd old world if some farmer was allowed to mess up his harvest with:
Quote:

Meine zuhause
Unsere Schweiz
SVP
My home. Our Switzerland. Nope I can't find much wrong with that. It's hardly "Britons never never will be slaves". Am I missing something?

Polorise 16.08.2007 14:18

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AbFab (Post 93614)
My home. Our Switzerland. Nope I can't find much wrong with that. It's hardly "Britons never never will be slaves". Am I missing something?

I am commenting on the immediate reaction of the three "gentlemen" sitting in front of me, who started into some ugly comments regards "Juden" & "Schwartzer", as I had an orthodox Jew sitting next to me & there were more than a few people of dark skin on the flight.

If you read my original post again, I said smarter, as this is a double edged piece of advertising - "My home. Our Switzerland"encourages the mindless bigotry we are discussing in this thread as a whole. The reasoning behind my post was to address that & also to share some first hand experience.

Blonaybear 16.08.2007 14:33

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polorise (Post 93441)
Seems the knuckle draggers at the SVP are getting a little smarter. Flying into Kloten yesterday evening, I saw something quite surprising. Taking a leaf out of Syngenta's book, they have a planting on the approach top the runway :



three bauers were siting in the row in front of me & started in on "Das stimmt" etc & made a couple of really crasss remarks ... I felt rather sorry for the elderly Jewish gent sitting next to me, who was the obvious target of their jibes. Wankers :msnmad:

Has anyone else noticed this.

The sign says:

My Home
Our Switzerland

Why is this considered offensive ?

AbFab 16.08.2007 14:34

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polorise (Post 93619)
I am commenting on the immediate reaction of the three "gentlemen" sitting in front of me, who started into some ugly comments regards "Juden" & "Schwartzer", as I had an orthodox Jew sitting next to me & there were more than a few people of dark skin on the flight.

If you read my original post again, I said smarter, as this is a double edged piece of advertising - "My home. Our Switzerland"encourages the mindless bigotry we are discussing in this thread as a whole. The reasoning behind my post was to address that & also to share some first hand experience.

And I'm replying to DNAman like my quote says... :msnshock:

terryhall 16.08.2007 14:35

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
To me the inference is clear, that anyone not born and raised in Switzerland should be seen as a "lesser citizen" because it is (by definition) not "their Switzerland". Certainly it bothers me.

AbFab 16.08.2007 14:40

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by terryhall (Post 93624)
To me the inference is clear, that anyone not born and raised in Switzerland should be seen as a "lesser citizen" because it is (by definition) not "their Switzerland". Certainly it bothers me.

I have adopted Swiss nationality (keeping my British one too) and find the idea that passengers on a plane landing at Zurich airport could find this statement bothersome in any way, seem to odd to say the least. ..

Blonaybear 16.08.2007 14:54

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by terryhall (Post 93624)
To me the inference is clear, ....

It’s interesting to note that all through this thread it’s not what the SVP/UDC actually say but what people think they say that’s being discussed.

Don’t confuse me with facts, I’ve made up my mind.

Yokine 16.08.2007 15:19

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Australia certainly deports criminals who have not taken up citizenship. Something I agree with. Granted, it's much easier to gain Australian citizenship compared to Switzerland. Examples:
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/s...005962,00.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...10/1635662.htm

As has been said before, the black sheep (and airport greeting) are classic works of propaganda. Relatively innocent at face value, but the true target audience takes it as intended. Another Australian example is the local SVP equivalent Wikipedia reference-linkOne Nation, meaning "Our White Nation".

Even the SVP spin doctor commenting on the vandalised sign is classic. "The impression develops......all Swiss are Nazis and the Jews constitute a majority of the criminals in Switzerland". I'm sure he realises the intent was to compare the SVP to Nazis and their views on a minority.

Also, the poster in my neighborhood has been altered with SVP written on the black sheep. The good Swiss kick out the SVP black sheep.

Blonaybear 16.08.2007 16:12

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
It seems that many people have decided that the ‘target’ of this initiative is black people but how can this be ? The ‘target’ group will, in effect, appoint themselves by committing one of the very serious crimes listed. It’s optional, don’t commit the crime and you can’t be targeted.

terryhall 16.08.2007 16:23

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I think the "target" of the advert (i.e. who is it designed to appeal to) is actually that small element of any society who are happy to use whatever excuse and/or political vehicle is available to voice their small mindedness and bigotry.

In the UK we had the National Front, and now have the BNP, it seems over here we have the SVP. The worrying thing to me, is how it is much more readily accepted by the mainstream over here.

(For example, I can't imagine the BNP running the same ad campaign on rotating billboards in Paddington, Kings Cross etc - but the SVP have these up at Hauptbanhof in Zurich!)

Blonaybear 16.08.2007 17:29

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by terryhall (Post 93698)
I think the "target" of the advert (i.e. who is it designed to appeal to) is actually that small element of any society who are happy to use whatever excuse and/or political vehicle is available to voice their small mindedness and bigotry.

In the UK we had the National Front, and now have the BNP, it seems over here we have the SVP. The worrying thing to me, is how it is much more readily accepted by the mainstream over here.

(For example, I can't imagine the BNP running the same ad campaign on rotating billboards in Paddington, Kings Cross etc - but the SVP have these up at Hauptbanhof in Zurich!)

My comments actually refered to the ‘target’ of the initiative itself and not the ‘target’ of the advert. If, as you say, the ‘target’ of the advert is just a small element it seems pointless as, surely, they would want to appeal to a majority, not a minority ?

Firstly, let’s make it clear that I don’t support the BNP but I think that one of the reasons that it they attracts support in the UK is that it addresses the problems that worry people while the other political parties ignore them and spend their time attacking the BNP instead. Consequently the BNP end up as the only party that seems to recognise a problem and offer a solution.

It seems to me that the situation is much the same here. The various political parties are so busy attacking the SVP/UDC they are ignoring the fact that serious crime committed by foreigners is a big concern, certainly in this part of the country, but they are not addressing it. The SVP/UDC is the only political party apparently prepared to face up to the issue.

terryhall 16.08.2007 17:49

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 93731)
Firstly, let’s make it clear that I don’t support the BNP but I think that one of the reasons that it they attracts support in the UK is that it addresses the problems that worry people while the other political parties ignore them and spend their time attacking the BNP instead. Consequently the BNP end up as the only party that seems to recognise a problem and offer a solution.

I don't think anyone could call this a solution to any problem...that's what the BNP is in my opinion, political front to it or no.

It boils down to perception. I agree with the poster above who questioned the fariness of any system that punishes the criminal twice - particularly when it doesn't do the same to other criminals based solely on nationality. If that is "the problem" you refer to, then I guess I don't understand where you're coming from, sorry.

Guest 16.08.2007 17:53

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 93731)

It seems to me that the situation is much the same here. The various political parties are so busy attacking the SVP/UDC they are ignoring the fact that serious crime committed by foreigners is a big concern, certainly in this part of the country, but they are not addressing it. The SVP/UDC is the only political party apparently prepared to face up to the issue.

Certainly so, i think people have an issue with how they are addressing the issue. I know it might be an extreme example but this harks back to the old days of Apartheid in South Africa..... there was a very clear "whites only" distinction made (with the pre-requisite signage).... in Zürich there are clear delineations made (albeit very subtly) where entire residential areas are "Swiss only" and I have heard that there are entire villages in rural CH where foreigners are unwelcome (many swiss people have told me where not to travel).

I am intrigued by expats who have adopted swiss citizenship..... do you really feel swiss?

Blonaybear 16.08.2007 18:21

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DNAMan (Post 93741)
I have heard that there are entire villages in rural CH where foreigners are unwelcome (many swiss people have told me where not to travel).

Really ? where ?

Blonaybear 16.08.2007 18:31

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by terryhall (Post 93739)
It boils down to perception. I agree with the poster above who questioned the fariness of any system that punishes the criminal twice - particularly when it doesn't do the same to other criminals based solely on nationality. If that is "the problem" you refer to, then I guess I don't understand where you're coming from, sorry.

The “problem” is that people feel that if someone is granted the right to reside here as a guest in this country and they then commit a serious crime they should not be allowed to continue residing here after their sentence is spent.

AbFab 16.08.2007 18:54

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by terryhall (Post 93739)
I don't think anyone could call this a solution to any problem...that's what the BNP is in my opinion, political front to it or no.

It boils down to perception. I agree with the poster above who questioned the fariness of any system that punishes the criminal twice - particularly when it doesn't do the same to other criminals based solely on nationality. If that is "the problem" you refer to, then I guess I don't understand where you're coming from, sorry.

I see where Bloneybear is coming from.

Of course the BNP are not the solution and the SVP don't have the solution either, but they have recognised and addressed a concern that worries many people Switzerland. While other parties pretend it isn't a concern.

The problem is not the SVP or BNP, but the situation that allows them to gain support...

mark 16.08.2007 18:57

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 93771)
The “problem” is that people feel that if someone is granted the right to reside here as a guest in this country and they then commit a serious crime they should not be allowed to continue residing here after their sentence is spent.

The problem with granting someone a right to live here as a guest, is that it comes with certain obligations. Obligations such as treating that person according to not only established laws, but also human rights traditions (many of which Switzerland has had a hand in setting up). Unfortunately this also means that some of these guests (just like members of the native population) must be treated fairly and consistently in the case where they commit crimes. In my opinion, if a country is not prepared to treat both foreigners and non-foreigners according to the same laws, then they should never have issued them with a residence permit in the first place. But once they have, then they have to stand behind this commitment.

Now what about those foreigners who did not move here, but who were born here and grew up here (of which there are a large number). Or those who have parents who were born here? They are denied citizenship, so in the case of committing one of these crimes, where would they be deported to? Perhaps to a country where they've never been, or possibly don't even speak the language?

Are there provisions in this proposal to recognise the fact that Swiss-born foreigners will be treated as Swiss for the purposes of this legislation? I doubt that very much.

And before we get all righteous and judge those who commit crimes as being deserving of their punishments (no matter how harsh those punishments may be), let's stop and consider if every single one of us has ever been on the wrong side of the law. Ever done something silly when you were young enough not to know better? Maybe you were caught for it, maybe you weren't. All I'm saying is that people make mistakes, and I hope that our legal system will try to show some compassion and some steps toward reforming people rather than simply exporting them.

I see the biggest danger in all this as a case of escalation. When the majority can vote on issues which affect the minority (who cannot vote), there's nothing to stop subsequent proposals from tightening these laws. After all, asylum laws have been tightened seven times (can't remember the exact number, but that will do) in the last years. If this passes, what's to stop the SVP proposing another round of tightening.

Did anyone notice the front page of 20min yesterday?

It's a story about the boss of the SVP making a television appearance for some kind of grass eating competition. He got plenty of newspaper coverage for it - but did anyone notice that the grass samples were numbered with little logos of the same sheep in their ad? Or that he was wearing glasses made of grass, also with a logo of that sheep on the front.

Hats off to the SVP - they have great graphics, great spin doctors and and excellent awareness of marketing. The funny part here is that they are spending LOADs on advertising, but they are only at the signature stage - they don't need that many signatures, why invest so heavily in marketing at this point in time? Because when the real vote comes up, they'll bring out the same graphics for their yes campaign. Or perhaps the sheep will come out to push another cause. It's simply a case of building a brand.

What amazes me the most is that newspapers and advertising companies are all too happy to run this ad. I would have thought that a paper would look at the ad and declare that it was too controversial to print, and simply refuse. Papers in other countries would refuse. But the astounding this is that they printed it.

Now 20min is a trash paper - I'm not too surprised. But why did the NZZ, an internationally respected paper, run the ad?

Can anyone ever recall seeing so much advertising from a single organisation on a single topic? In my seven years here, I've never seen anything advertised this intently. There's a lot of money behind this, and I suspect it has more to do with trying to build a base for the SVP itself, rather than the issue being proposed.

AbFab 16.08.2007 18:58

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DNAMan (Post 93741)
<snip>

I am intrigued by expats who have adopted swiss citizenship..... do you really feel swiss?

As Swiss as someone who's mother tongue, education, upbringing etc. etc. is English can. Which is not much.

But when go back the the UK (no longer 'home') after nearly 20 years here I then realise how 'Swiss' I have become in my thinking and attitudes...

Lob 16.08.2007 18:58

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I agree Mark - viral advertising at its finest ;)

chemgoddess 16.08.2007 19:01

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Seriously. What was up with that? I found it so bizarre I almost couldn't even believe I was seeing it. And when/how/why do you decide that your special skill is determining different types of grass? :confused::confused:

How much time does that take?

Very well said Mark.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark (Post 93793)
Did anyone notice the front page of 20min yesterday?

It's a story about the boss of the SVP making a television appearance for some kind of grass eating competition. He got plenty of newspaper coverage for it - but did anyone notice that the grass samples were numbered with little logos of the same sheep in their ad? Or that he was wearing glasses made of grass, also with a logo of that sheep on the front.


mark 16.08.2007 19:19

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AbFab (Post 93789)
The problem is not the SVP or BNP, but the situation that allows them to gain support...

Agree with you there. In 1930's Germany many populist ideas were put forward to the general population - they were easy to sell to the people because of the economic hardships created by the depression.

But in our case what "situation" do we have? We are given statistics and told about all these things, but how many people are actually touched by these problems?

The fact is that even when this one is over, the SVP will wheel out the next "problem", or of course we'll be told what a big problem it is, because if we weren't told, we probably would never have even noticed...

Personally I think that far more energy could be dedicated (both by the political parties and by the Swiss people themselves) to addressing some other more important issues, rather than this constant sideshow routine of distractions.

Polorise 16.08.2007 21:44

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mark (Post 93793)
Can anyone ever recall seeing so much advertising from a single organisation on a single topic? In my seven years here, I've never seen anything advertised this intently. There's a lot of money behind this, and I suspect it has more to do with trying to build a base for the SVP itself, rather than the issue being proposed.

Mark, as ever a great post ... what dismays me is that none of the other parties are really standing up to denounce this trash ... in fact this worries me immensely, as it shows (at least to me) that at grass roots, the Swiss are empathetic to this crass display of xenophobia.

Sorensen 16.08.2007 23:56

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polorise (Post 93839)
Mark, as ever a great post ... what dismays me is that none of the other parties are really standing up to denounce this trash ... in fact this worries me immensely, as it shows (at least to me) that at grass roots, the Swiss are empathetic to this crass display of xenophobia.

I do not remember who was behind it, but in the tram today I saw an ad along the lines "Born here, went to school here - and you call me foreigner? NN, apprentice" I think it was from some cantonal organisations of BS, BL, SO, AG and BE, maybe more.

As for the money, it would only take a few wealthy people (and remember, there are some really wealthy locals) to get quite far. They have party members to do a lot of the practical work.

/Martin

terryhall 17.08.2007 11:22

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Having gone into some detailed reading over some of the links on earlier pages, I'm intrigues by this paragraph from this link - http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/d...=1151658618000

"Two-thirds of inmates in Swiss prisons do not have a residence permit and must leave Switzerland after doing their time – although serious offenders will in most cases be deported even if they have a residence permit."

Now please correct me if I'm wrong here (I've only done some surface reading so I'm prepared to be shot down), but it seems to me from this statement that the right within law to deport a serious criminal who is here with or without a residence permit already exists...so does this initiative make this compulsory, rather than at the discretion of the judge?

Because if that's the case, then it is to me an initiative based not on giving the option to deport a criminal, but rather to take the option away...

mark 17.08.2007 11:36

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Terryhall, you are correct. There are already existing provisions to deport foreigners with residence permits. Even if this initiative passes, they'll run it again in a few more years to pretend like it is still a problem and has to be addressed again.

You also mentioned another important point - 2/3s of foreigners in Swiss prisons don't have residence permits. When people jump up and down about the crime statistics, they often fail to make this distinction. For example if a gang of criminals enters Switzerland on a temporary basis to break into houses and smuggle the loot out of the country, and they get caught, they will end up in the statistics.

But that won't stop us from using these statistics to pretend that we have a problem that we are somehow going to solve by changing the law to deport people with residence permits. It's really quite perverse in my opinion.

After all - isn't it easier to get indignant about something like this rather than fixing the real issues like problems with social order, family issues, long term unemployment and integration. Crime is not and issue of nationality, that is a gross simplification of the facts - crime statistics map very closely to "class issues", those with less education and opportunities tend to find themselves on the wrong end of the law more often than those who don't.

Since the underclass in Switzerland is massively overrepresented by foreigners, it doesn't take a genius to work out that there would be an over representation in the crime statistics as well. But that's not because they are foreign, it's most likely because of their situation. That's not to say I am excusing the fact that they have committed crimes, I'm just saying that if people managed to look beyond their own prejudice, the real issues may look a little different.

chemgoddess 17.08.2007 11:43

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
That was my point exactly. Very well said. I just never understood the reason for the initiative given the way things are currently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by terryhall (Post 94002)
Having gone into some detailed reading over some of the links on earlier pages, I'm intrigues by this paragraph from this link - http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/d...=1151658618000

"Two-thirds of inmates in Swiss prisons do not have a residence permit and must leave Switzerland after doing their time – although serious offenders will in most cases be deported even if they have a residence permit."

Now please correct me if I'm wrong here (I've only done some surface reading so I'm prepared to be shot down), but it seems to me from this statement that the right within law to deport a serious criminal who is here with or without a residence permit already exists...so does this initiative make this compulsory, rather than at the discretion of the judge?

Because if that's the case, then it is to me an initiative based not on giving the option to deport a criminal, but rather to take the option away...


The Laundry Man 17.08.2007 15:32

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Here's the SVP worrying about how to deal with all them criminal "Black" sheep when their leaders' the biggest crook of the lot!

Blonaybear 17.08.2007 16:32

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Mark, thanks for your posts which raise some interesting points.

If one does not agree with this initiative surely the best thing to do is deal with it by reasoned argument, as you are doing. Getting involved in discussions about what may, or may not be, the intended meaning of a black sheep is not likely to achieve anything except more publicity for the SVP/UDC.

The SVP/UDC have published the statistics to support the initiative and I am interested to see if anybody demonstrates that these are wrong. I wonder why they’ve not done it already ?

As for this “problem” I think it existed well before the initiative was proposed and the SVP/UDC is able to take it up because none of the other parties seem to see it as an issue which worries people. Obviously our perception of things will vary according to where we live, who we associate with and what media we are exposed to. Certainly crime committed by foreigners has featured in surveys of what worries people for some time. When a serious crime is reported here the nationality of the transgressor is mentioned and when you see that the majority of, for example, drug traffickers are foreigners with permits it’s bound to have an effect. In the area where I live there has been quite a lot of burglaries committed by foreign residents and so people start to install alarm systems and this effects the quality of their life and their perception of security.

In the village of Bex, Vaud the population voted to close the Fareas refugee centre because of the continued problems of drug dealing and this received a lot of media attention. When they complain calling them xenophobic or racists does nothing to address the genuine issues facing them. Would you want to live there ?

As for the newspapers possibly refusing the black sheet adverts that would be an interesting situation as they presumably would have to justify their refusal and establish that the black sheep is racist. That would should make an interesting court case ! Bring forth the expert witnesses on black sheep !

The danger is that all the energy of the opponents of the initiative will be directed towards the SPV/UDC as a party and not address the issue under discussion, and it will end up with no reasoned arguments being put forward as to why people should vote against it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Polorise (Post 93839)
Mark, as ever a great post ... what dismays me is that none of the other parties are really standing up to denounce this trash ... in fact this worries me immensely, as it shows (at least to me) that at grass roots, the Swiss are empathetic to this crass display of xenophobia.

Switzerland has one of the highest populations of foreigners, 1 in 5. Xenophobic ?

terryhall 17.08.2007 16:49

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Blonaybear,

I think that most of the debate that has been made above has gone far beyond the symbolic nature or otherwise of the black sheep in the advert - a lot of good points have been made and seemingly rubbished because they made a passing reference to the associated imagery.

Have you any comment to make on the fact that the right to deport a serious criminal already exists in Swiss law, and that this initiative effectively seems to remove any choice in the matter for the judiciary?

(I'll try not to mention any unusually coloured farmyard animals.)

Blonaybear 17.08.2007 17:41

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by terryhall (Post 94185)
Blonaybear,

I think that most of the debate that has been made above has gone far beyond the symbolic nature or otherwise of the black sheep in the advert - a lot of good points have been made and seemingly rubbished because they made a passing reference to the associated imagery.

Have you any comment to make on the fact that the right to deport a serious criminal already exists in Swiss law, and that this initiative effectively seems to remove any choice in the matter for the judiciary?

(I'll try not to mention any unusually coloured farmyard animals.)

As I understand it (and I accept that I may be wrong) the current situation seems to be that a judge can order a period of exclusion but they do not always do so, and the reason for this could be that when the sentence is spent the canton still has the option to deport. Presumably, in many cases, the permit would have expired during the sentence and the right to be here would have gone. Switzerland has been critized for this because the prisoner often has to wait until the end of their sentence before knowing what will happen. There is also the situation where long term prisoners are returned to their own countries to serve their sentence (effectively deported) under an international agreement and I seem to recall that the Swiss have made funds available to certain countries to expand their prisons to handle these cases.

If my comments are correct it does seem to a somewhat chaotic sitruation at the moment and I suppose you could say that this is an attempt to tidy it up and give the choice to the judiciary, subject to a minimum of 5 years and maximum of 15 years exile for the crimes listed.

I’d certainly like to hear more arguments about this as I can’t say I’ve made up my mind but, on balance, at the moment, I tend to go for giving the decision to the judiciary.

asdfasdf 19.08.2007 15:35

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I just saw a couple of the ads with the black sheep, it looks like they've now put an old white mans face on it, us English speakers must not have been the only ones who read between the lines (sorry if already mentioned, I've read about 3/4 of this thread)

Nairda 19.08.2007 18:46

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
1 Attachment(s)
I saw this image fly postered in Bern.
It shows the black and white sheep kissing (that thought alone would get the SVP Volk looking for their rifles).
It says "In 2006, 37.8% of marriages were between Swiss and foreigners (Federal Office for Statistics). Love is life!"

mark 19.08.2007 21:17

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 94172)
If one does not agree with this initiative surely the best thing to do is deal with it by reasoned argument, as you are doing.

Well since most of us are unable to vote, reasoned argument is all we have. However, since I believe that few people who vote on initiatives like this actually consider reasoned argument (especially in light of the style of advertising used), I fear that many of us are wasting our breath.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 94172)
Getting involved in discussions about what may, or may not be, the intended meaning of a black sheep is not likely to achieve anything except more publicity for the SVP/UDC.

True. In a country where such advertising doesn't seem to raise any eyebrows it probably is pointless to discuss it. However, I still believe that such imagery, which attempts to hijack and distort the "issue" (if indeed there is one), is wrong. I'm not the only who seems to think so, and I've already read similar comments in the press.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 94172)
The SVP/UDC have published the statistics to support the initiative and I am interested to see if anybody demonstrates that these are wrong. I wonder why they’ve not done it already ?

Oh, was that how they supported the initiative? Yes, well people probably are quite gullible when it comes to statistics, especially those whose emotions are stirred by pictures of black and white sheep. I have already pointed out in a previous post why I think those statistics don't tell the true story of the situation, maybe you can check back up the thread if you missed that explanation (I'm guessing you may have missed it since you wonder why nobody has questioned those statistics).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 94172)
As for this “problem” I think it existed well before the initiative was proposed and the SVP/UDC is able to take it up because none of the other parties seem to see it as an issue which worries people.

Possibly other parties don't run with these issues because they don't perceive them as a big enough issue, or are focusing on tasks they think of as more important. Let's be frank here - you can make anything into an issue, even if it's not. You can even make the population swallow it if you feed it to them the right way - pre-WW2 Germany is a good example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 94172)
Obviously our perception of things will vary according to where we live, who we associate with and what media we are exposed to. Certainly crime committed by foreigners has featured in surveys of what worries people for some time.

Ok, I haven't read all of these surveys, but I do recall hearing one on the radio which simply listed "foreigners" rather than "crime by foreigners" as a problem. As we both know survey answers can also be heavily skewed by many factors. The Swiss are the second happiest people in the world according to surveys, which must have also been taken at a time when they weren't worrying about foreigners, or crime by foreigners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 94172)
When a serious crime is reported here the nationality of the transgressor is mentioned and when you see that the majority of, for example, drug traffickers are foreigners with permits it’s bound to have an effect. In the area where I live there has been quite a lot of burglaries committed by foreign residents and so people start to install alarm systems and this effects the quality of their life and their perception of security.

Selective reporting of nationality of criminals and victims is an issue which pushes the buttons of many EF members. In fact, I'm sure if we were to take all of these media reports and add them all up and compare them to the official statistics, we'd find that there are many more foreigners committing crimes than even the statistics show. In the case were they have to report that a Swiss committed a crime, they'll usually throw in the fact that he's a paper Swiss, just so everyone can remain safe in the mistaken belief that Swiss don't commit crimes.

Remember the Swiss victim of the stabbing at the street parade? I scoured the news to see mention of the fact that he might be a paper Swiss, of non-Swiss background, non-Swiss born, etc. But nothing. But from his photo he certainly looked very foreign to me (maybe I am wrong here - I admit that this is a guess on my part). Now let's be totally realistic here - if he was the attacker, would the situation have been the same?

Well I'm hoping that the quality of life of people in your area isn't affected, or in the next survey they won't be the second-happiest people on earth. I've also been the victim of a break-in. The police were all too happy to suggest to me that it was a foreigner. However since the only facts that I could see was that it was a single person of short stature with a crowbar, I wasn't ready to start making judgements on the nationality of intruder. The fact that the police were ready to suggest such things disappointed me greatly.

You mentioned that the majority of drug traffickers are foreigners without permits. I don't doubt that at all. But I think it would be much more constructive if we stopped to ask WHY that is the case? As I've said before, these issues are issues of social class, rather than nationality. Some of these people are dirt poor, they have very little opportunity and they are doing what they need to do to put food in their mouths. Many have escaped from horrible situations and probably see that as a way to survive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 94172)
In the village of Bex, Vaud the population voted to close the Fareas refugee centre because of the continued problems of drug dealing and this received a lot of media attention. When they complain calling them xenophobic or racists does nothing to address the genuine issues facing them. Would you want to live there ?

When you say "issues facing them" at first I thought you were saying that we should be looking at the issues as why people in this refugee center were dealing drugs, or rather the situation that created this. You are right, this would be a constructive way to deal with things. But I realised that the "them" you were referring to might have been the population who voted to close the centre. I wonder where the people went? Of course another way to deal with such a "problem" is try to cut down on the number of refugees that make it into such centres. Oops - we already did that didn't we? That was the last SVP initiative that we (excluding most EF members and myself) voted on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 94172)
As for the newspapers possibly refusing the black sheet adverts that would be an interesting situation as they presumably would have to justify their refusal and establish that the black sheep is racist. That would should make an interesting court case ! Bring forth the expert witnesses on black sheep !

Why would this be interesting, and why on earth would they have to justify their refusal? Even bigger question - why would it make a court case? Newspapers are private companies and they do not have to carry any advertising or content which they do not wish to. Or does Switzerland somehow have special laws, different to the rest of the world, where any kind of questionable material must be printed if someone has enough money?

Do you really think that such an ad would have been accepted for publication in many other countries? Can you point to any similar examples?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 94172)
The danger is that all the energy of the opponents of the initiative will be directed towards the SPV/UDC as a party and not address the issue under discussion, and it will end up with no reasoned arguments being put forward as to why people should vote against it.

Well I think we probably both know that in a democracy people don't always vote with the facts, we'd be fooling ourselves if we did. I think we both also know that money makes a big difference to which issues get decided. With the amount of money being spent by the SVP, what are the opponents of this supposed to do? Will reasoned debate be enough?

I'm sorry but the main issue I have with this is that the advertising is emotive and inflammatory. We can't have reasoned debate in the light of such a campaign, it will be ignored.

I'm all for a political party which stirs up trouble every now and then and forces other parties to debate issues. But I really have a big problem with the methods of the SVP. There are other ways to debate such issues without plastering the country with posters of white sheep kicking black sheep across borders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 94172)
Switzerland has one of the highest populations of foreigners, 1 in 5. Xenophobic ?

Sorry, I really feel like I'm repeating myself (not in this thread, but in a hundred other threads), but this is also a distortion of the situation. Switzerland has 1 in 5 foreigners because it has one of the strictest policies for making people citizens in the civilised world. Australia has the highest percentage of residents born outside the country, but they aren't called foreigners, they are called citizens. Therefore, in the statistics they'd have a lower number of foreigners.

If we changed the definition of foreigner to exclude anyone born in the country, and anyone who has lived here longer than five years on a permanent residence permit, would this number be 1 in 5?

Xenophobic? Do I really have to say it? :rolleyes:

Nairda 20.08.2007 02:07

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mark (Post 94650)
I'm sorry but the main issue I have with this is that the advertising is emotive and inflammatory.

It's not as if this is an isolated example of this sort of advertising by the SVP.
As Swiss Info says "The People's Party uses provocative posters to spread fear of foreigners."
http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/search/...81&sid=8102303
The article itself includes an interesting commentary on the possibility that parliament would be unable to transform this initiative into law if it were passed, a fact clearly understood by the SVP, as demonstrated by Blocher's comments.

Clearly, therefore, and despite what Blonaybear says, the (oft repeated) imagery provocatively spreading fear of foreigners is more important to the SVP than the cause the advertising is supposed to support.

No doubt the SVP has calculated that playing the anti-foreigner card will work well for them in the 2 months to the national elections. Expect further stunts.

http://www.swissinfo.org/xobix_media..._8094740_2.jpg

hwkit 20.08.2007 04:06

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I find some of the old posters from Germany during and before the WWII, very similar use of visual element, just turn a bit and it become the new SVP poster.
http://www.jcpa.org/phas/image13.jpghttp://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/propaganda.jpghttp://www.flholocaustmuseum.org/his...oom1/17407.jpghttp://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/...nabe450pxh.jpg

[IMG]file:///Users/kit/Desktop/untitled%20folder/Dolchstoss1942JudasVerratWKnabe450pxh.jpg[/IMG][IMG]file:///Users/kit/Desktop/untitled%20folder/image13.jpg[/IMG]image taken from:
www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-050-uriely.htm
www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1367597/posts
http://www.flholocaustmuseum.org/his...propaganda.cfm
http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/...arthRev069.htm

hwkit 21.08.2007 14:26

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I just found this in the internet, pity is a .de web site (not .ch). can't read any of them, but the re-designs of the poster are great!!

http://www.ariva.de/Selten_daemliche...77?pnr=3502148

Nairda 31.08.2007 02:22

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
http://www.swissinfo.org/xobix_media..._8155534_3.jpg

Swiss Info reports that this campaign has been denounced as irresponsible and liable to incite racial hatred. http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/d...56064&rss=true

"I think it is important that there are people in this country who have the courage to stand up and denounce this type of campaign, which to be quite frank disgusts me. It disgusts me because it stirs up hatred. They are racist campaigns." - Swiss President Micheline Calmy-Rey.

Polorise 31.08.2007 09:08

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 99346)
http://www.swissinfo.org/xobix_media..._8155534_3.jpg

Swiss Info reports that this campaign has been denounced as irresponsible and liable to incite racial hatred. http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/d...56064&rss=true

"I think it is important that there are people in this country who have the courage to stand up and denounce this type of campaign, which to be quite frank disgusts me. It disgusts me because it stirs up hatred. They are racist campaigns." - Swiss President Micheline Calmy-Rey.

I really like the SVP spokesmans joined up thinking on his response to UN "intervention" (wtf?) -

Quote:

The People's Party dismissed Diène's intervention as "worthless", describing the UN special rapporteur on racism as a troublemaker who never had a good word to say about Switzerland.
so thats all right then ... :msnsarcastic:

twunts


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