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-   -   Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters] (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/10275-security-creation-initiative-aka-svp-black-sheep-grabbing-hands-posters.html)

Blonaybear 26.07.2007 20:41

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by magyir (Post 87213)
Might go for it if there was a similar restriction on travel imposed on the Swiss for similar crimes ie no travel for them outside CH for the same periods for similar sentences/crimes.

I donít really understand the logic of your thinking here. You say a Ďsimilar restriction of travelí but itís not about travel restrictions.

The question is, if a foreigner has been granted the right to reside in Switzerland and then commits a serious crime should the right of residence be withdrawn. Obviously they would still have their passport and could go wherever they liked (if the country concerned would except them) but they would lose the right to reside in, or visit, Switzerland.

What you are proposing is that if a Swiss is convicted their passport should be withdrawn which is a completely different thing.

chemgoddess 27.07.2007 09:44

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/d...=1151658618000

"Researchers at Bern University concluded that foreigners are seen as "flight risks" by authorities and are therefore more likely to be sent to prison than local criminals."

"The number of crimes committed by foreigners last year was slightly lower than in 2004.

On Thursday the Federal Police Office reported that the number of reported crimes in Switzerland fell last year for the first time in five years.

A total of 303,270 crimes were reported, around 10.5 per cent lower than the previous year and matching 1995 levels."

Oh, and this is just weird to me:

"But domestic violence only became a crime in April 2004 and this reclassification would have had a significant effect on the statistics."

Nathu 27.07.2007 11:09

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Without giving my opinion about the initiative, which would require some time...

Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 87325)
Oh, and this is just weird to me:

"But domestic violence only became a crime in April 2004 and this reclassification would have had a significant effect on the statistics."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathu (Post 77812)
Domestic violence was made an "Offizialdelikt" recently, the authorities have to investigate it even when the suspected victim doesn't make a report.

So they want to say that the domestic violence statistic didn't go up because of more crimes, but probably because a bigger percentage of the crimes is now reported and investigated.

chemgoddess 27.07.2007 11:11

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Yes, I think they were saying that crime decreased over all between 2004 and 2005 but it may have decreased even more because of the fact that "new" crimes were included.

Blonaybear 27.07.2007 11:19

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 87325)
http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/d...=1151658618000

"Researchers at Bern University concluded that foreigners are seen as "flight risks" by authorities and are therefore more likely to be sent to prison than local criminals."

"The number of crimes committed by foreigners last year was slightly lower than in 2004.

On Thursday the Federal Police Office reported that the number of reported crimes in Switzerland fell last year for the first time in five years.

A total of 303,270 crimes were reported, around 10.5 per cent lower than the previous year and matching 1995 levels."

Oh, and this is just weird to me:

"But domestic violence only became a crime in April 2004 and this reclassification would have had a significant effect on the statistics."

To give you an example of this in the area around Geneva there are crimes committed by people coming over the border from France. If a custodial sentence is considered appropriate then a closed prison, as opposed to an open one, would be more logical as otherwise the prisoner could quite simply walk out back across the border !

Regarding domestic violence, I think that the change referred to is to move it from a civil offence to a criminal one. More here.

Chemgoddess, as you started this thread by asking about the initiative, have you formed any opinion about it know that you know more ?

chemgoddess 27.07.2007 11:30

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I actually had a very long conversation the other night with a dear Swiss friend of mine. He said he would most likely vote for it. I'm still not convinced that there is anything wrong with the current system as it stands now. As this has never been about, for me at least, that foreign nationals shouldn't be kicked out of Switzerland for committing serious crimes. I was more interested/concerned with the possible abuse of the system for the more minor infractions and booting the entire family if one of the kids does something. My friend thinks though that with the law in place, it will act as a deterrent.

If by chance there are a certain groups of people that have demonstrated in the past a higher tendency to commit crimes perhaps the Swiss government should be more discerning about who they grant asylum to. But again, that could also be interpretted as "racial profiling."

But you do bring up a point I wanted to say something about. Often times the crimes committed by foreigners are by foreigners who aren't even here legally which, I think, gives a bad name to the law-abiding, integrated foreigners that live in Switzerland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 87371)
To give you an example of this in the area around Geneva there are crimes committed by people coming over the border from France. If a custodial sentence is considered appropriate then a closed prison, as opposed to an open one, would be more logical as otherwise the prisoner could quite simply walk out back across the border !

Regarding domestic violence, I think that the change referred to is to move it from a civil offence to a criminal one. More here.

Chemgoddess, as you started this thread by asking about the initiative, have you formed any opinion about it know that you know more ?


Lob 27.07.2007 11:41

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I think a lot of this is spin; for every "foreigner" who commits a crime, how many other "foreigners" are living here paying tax and obeying the law? Lots.

The SVP simply drum-up some manipulated stats and whip the conservative voter into shape through these fear tactics.

magyir 27.07.2007 12:26

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 87236)
I donít really understand the logic of your thinking here. You say a Ďsimilar restriction of travelí but itís not about travel restrictions.

The question is, if a foreigner has been granted the right to reside in Switzerland and then commits a serious crime should the right of residence be withdrawn. Obviously they would still have their passport and could go wherever they liked (if the country concerned would except them) but they would lose the right to reside in, or visit, Switzerland.

What you are proposing is that if a Swiss is convicted their passport should be withdrawn which is a completely different thing.

I was attempting to propose a quid pro quo measure for the Swiss amounting to a loss of privilege. If foreigners must lose the privilege of residence surely the Swiss should lose an equivalent privilege, the right to travel being a proposal. For example the Swiss could still have an ID which would allow limited travel to EU, but not a passport which would prevent outer-European travel.

Just an idea.

Blonaybear 27.07.2007 12:30

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 87375)
I actually had a very long conversation the other night with a dear Swiss friend of mine. He said he would most likely vote for it. I'm still not convinced that there is anything wrong with the current system as it stands now. As this has never been about, for me at least, that foreign nationals shouldn't be kicked out of Switzerland for committing serious crimes. I was more interested/concerned with the possible abuse of the system for the more minor infractions and booting the entire family if one of the kids does something. My friend thinks though that with the law in place, it will act as a deterrent.

If by chance there are a certain groups of people that have demonstrated in the past a higher tendency to commit crimes perhaps the Swiss government should be more discerning about who they grant asylum to. But again, that could also be interpretted as "racial profiling."

But you do bring up a point I wanted to say something about. Often times the crimes committed by foreigners are by foreigners who aren't even here legally which, I think, gives a bad name to the law-abiding, integrated foreigners that live in Switzerland.

That you ! At last, a reasoned response and not a general rant about racial issues in general !

As far as being more discerning about who asylum is granted to that would definatly be a big NO. Can you imagin the abuse that would rain down upon the Swiss ? They have often been in the position where, proportionally, they have taken in more asylum seekers than just about any other country but they still get criticised for not doing more !

I agree about your last comment about illegal foreigners. Unfortunatly, whatever nationality you are, you are likely to be linked to the activities of your fellow nationals i.e. Bush/Iraq/American.

Here in Swiss Romande the press usually report the nationality and status of anyone convicted of a serious crime. As a consequence itís hard to ignore the fact that the majority of drug traffickers, for example, always seem to come from the same eastern countries and this is bound to reflect upon their fellow countrymen who may well be law abiding residents.

I donít know if you follow the news from the UK but this week Gordon Brown has announced that up to 4,000 foreigners are to be deported by the end of the year as their prison sentences come to an end. This has come about because of pressure from the public. Foreigners have been jailed and then released and allowed to remain but so many have gone on to commit further crimes and people have had enough.

Blonaybear 27.07.2007 14:50

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lob Rockster (Post 87380)
I think a lot of this is spin; for every "foreigner" who commits a crime, how many other "foreigners" are living here paying tax and obeying the law? Lots.

The SVP simply drum-up some manipulated stats and whip the conservative voter into shape through these fear tactics.

The stat I quoted earlier was not from the SVP.

See this Wikipedia reference-linkLanguages_of_Switzerland#Languages which includes this:

While the crime rate among resident foreigners is significantly higher (by a factor 3.7 counting convictions under criminal law in 2003), this is mainly due to the different demographic composition, the non-naturalized population consisting of a significantly higher ratio of young males (according to a statement issued by the federal statistics office in 1996[6]) In 1997, there were for the first time more foreigners than Swiss among the convicts under criminal law (out of a fraction of 20.6% of the total population at the time). In 1999, the Federal Department of Justice and Police ordered a study regarding deliquency and nationality (Arbeitsgruppe "Auslšnderkriminalitšt"), which in its final report (2001) found that a conviction rate under criminal law about 12 times higher among asylum seekers (4%), while the conviction rate among other resident foreigners was about twice as high (0.6%) compared to Swiss citizens (0.3%).[7]

chemgoddess 27.07.2007 15:03

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Thanks, that's what I was trying to get at in one of my earlier posts (but didn't have the digits to back it up). That foreigners are more likely to be convicted of a crime than let's say your average Swiss person.

Does anybody know if the statistic that states that 45-50% of all the crime comitted is by foreigners is actually talking about convictions? Because if it is than it doesn't seem to me that half of the crime is being comitted by foreigners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 87435)
The stat I quoted earlier was not from the SVP.

See this Wikipedia reference-linkLanguages_of_Switzerland#Languages which includes this:

While the crime rate among resident foreigners is significantly higher (by a factor 3.7 counting convictions under criminal law in 2003), this is mainly due to the different demographic composition, the non-naturalized population consisting of a significantly higher ratio of young males (according to a statement issued by the federal statistics office in 1996[6]) In 1997, there were for the first time more foreigners than Swiss among the convicts under criminal law (out of a fraction of 20.6% of the total population at the time). In 1999, the Federal Department of Justice and Police ordered a study regarding deliquency and nationality (Arbeitsgruppe "Auslšnderkriminalitšt"), which in its final report (2001) found that a conviction rate under criminal law about 12 times higher among asylum seekers (4%), while the conviction rate among other resident foreigners was about twice as high (0.6%) compared to Swiss citizens (0.3%).[7]


Blonaybear 27.07.2007 15:17

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 87438)
Thanks, that's what I was trying to get at in one of my earlier posts (but didn't have the digits to back it up). That foreigners are more likely to be convicted of a crime than let's say your average Swiss person.

Does anybody know if the statistic that states that 45-50% of all the crime comitted is by foreigners is actually talking about convictions? Because if it is than it doesn't seem to me that half of the crime is being comitted by foreigners.

This article clearly states that it is actual convictions.

Nairda 27.07.2007 15:18

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
When considering stats about foreigners committing crime one has to remember that one of the reasons Switzerland has a high proportion of foreigners is the difficulty in obtaining citizenship by legal long term residents and those born in CH. In many countries a far higher proportion of settled first generation incomers, and certainly their second and third generation children/grandchildren would have citizenship.
Their crimes are then the crimes of nationals, not reported as offences committed by foreigners and the perpetrators aren't liable to deportation.
I'm remain in favour of dealing with the criminality not the nationality and essentially having the same punishment for the same offence.

Lob 27.07.2007 15:18

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
what do the naysayers think of a 3-strikes-and-you're-out idea?

Uncle Max 27.07.2007 15:30

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lob Rockster (Post 87443)
what do the naysayers think of a 3-strikes-and-you're-out idea?

I have not read all of this thread but feel anything like this goes against the egalitarian spirit. Thin end of wedge, slippery slope etc. It's different strokes for different folks, and with the law that's a bad idea IMO.

Blonaybear 27.07.2007 15:37

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lob Rockster (Post 87443)
what do the naysayers think of a 3-strikes-and-you're-out idea?

You mean three murders and out ?

Blonaybear 30.07.2007 12:08

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 87442)
When considering stats about foreigners committing crime one has to remember that one of the reasons Switzerland has a high proportion of foreigners is the difficulty in obtaining citizenship by legal long term residents and those born in CH. In many countries a far higher proportion of settled first generation incomers, and certainly their second and third generation children/grandchildren would have citizenship.
Their crimes are then the crimes of nationals, not reported as offences committed by foreigners and the perpetrators aren't liable to deportation.
I'm remain in favour of dealing with the criminality not the nationality and essentially having the same punishment for the same offence.

The system of naturalisation is currently under review by the government based on a report by The Swiss National Science Foundation Ė see this.

If naturalisation was simplified it is doubtful if it would make much difference to the numbers. The foreign population figure of 1,670,191 includes 442,407 (30%) persons who are here in short term permits and 44,869 asylum seekers.

C permits account for 1,081,179* (70%) but these include large groups of people who are not inclined, for one reason or another, to want to take Swiss nationality. For example, the Italians and Portuguese account for 465,161 and they tend to come to Switzerland for economic reasons and often return to their country when they retire. Germans (172,580) tend to come here for tax reasons as do many other Europeans who come for work/tax and these account for the vast majority of foreigners.

There are many people quite happy to reside here on a C permit and see no advantage in obtaining a Swiss passport. In fact in can be a disadvantage to have one in some cases. For example, a Brit living here on a C permit can own property and even vote on local issues (depending on canton) and avoid UK Inheritance tax when they die but by not having a Swiss passport they can also avoid Swiss inheritance rules. A win/win situation ! Another example is a young male who chooses not to obtain Swiss nationality and thus avoid military service.

A simplified nationalisation system may increase the number of applicants but I doubt that it would be a significant number. Living here on a C permit is very comfortable !

Getting back to the original issue, if a foreigner can commit a very serious crime and not risk deportation this is saying, in effect, that criminal record would not be considered in permit applications/renewals so it logically follows that you would also have to allow anyone to have a permit even if they are, for example, a convicted drug trafficker. I donít feel that many Swiss would find that a desirable position.

*(Federal Office for Migration: article 1, article 2)

blueshrimp 02.08.2007 08:58

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
On another note, have you guys noticed that the black sheep infamous picture has now been altered?

On the 20 minutes paper that they distribute on the train this morning I saw that it had been changed to show one of the white sheep with a knife (complete with blood squirting out) on it's side.

Not sure that improves the picture.

<shrug>

cyrus 02.08.2007 09:20

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I saw one graffitied by the football stadium in Luzern, I should have got a picture. The white sheep had the Nazi swastika, the black sheep a Judaean star.

I sincerely hope it's ironic.

blueshrimp 02.08.2007 09:51

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cyrus (Post 88741)
I saw one graffitied by the football stadium in Luzern, I should have got a picture. The white sheep had the Nazi swastika, the black sheep a Judaean star.

I sincerely hope it's ironic.


The one you describe seems to me to be a parody of the SVP. Namely, "look what the SVP is advocating, guys" type of statement. Probably not put up by the SVP itself.


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