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-   -   Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters] (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/10275-security-creation-initiative-aka-svp-black-sheep-grabbing-hands-posters.html)

adrian76 31.08.2007 11:28

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
It seems to me that few really have a problem with deporting someone who doesn't have a permit to be here, or even deporting someone who is from a foreign country who has committed a grave crime. It seems like the mechanism already exists in law for this to happen anyway.

But for sure the poster is something entirely more sinister. The campaign in no way justifies that poster.

I liked the alternative poster from Bern of the two sheep kissing, and I noticed someone had been paying attention when I saw a Swastika drawn in the eye of one of the white sheep, on a poster in HB. I heard some young Swiss on the train this morning denouncing the posters also. It occurred to me that some printed teeshirts featuring different coloured sheep and an alternative message, might not have been a bad idea for someone with some artistic talent. I reckon there must be a fair few Swiss that don't go along with the SVP view.

DeadLast 31.08.2007 13:42

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
There's one I've only seen in magazines with the top left sheep dead from a stabbing. I've always wanted to write "murderer" on the one standing in the top right watching the goings on. Or in the others, paint a robber mask on one of the white ones.

Nairda 31.08.2007 16:37

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polorise (Post 99366)
I really like the SVP spokesmans joined up thinking on his response to UN "intervention" (wtf?) -

Quote:
The People's Party dismissed Diène's intervention as "worthless", describing the UN special rapporteur on racism as a troublemaker who never had a good word to say about Switzerland.

so thats all right then ... :msnsarcastic:

twunts

I'm not sure which is worse, the SVP's approach or that it is likely to achieve them around 25% of the popular vote :eek:.

Blonaybear 01.09.2007 10:58

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jordy (Post 99699)
The nationalist Swiss People's Party is proposing a deportation policy that anti-racism campaigners say evokes Nazi-era practices. Under the plan, entire families would be expelled if their children are convicted of a violent crime, drug offenses or benefits fraud.

There is nothing in the wording of the initiative which allows for the deportation of relatives of convicted criminals.

Robinofhood 01.09.2007 11:00

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
My Last post was Information cut and pasted from todays news at Yahoo.com

mark 01.09.2007 11:09

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 99701)
There is nothing in the wording of the initiative which allows for the deportation of relatives of convicted criminals.

While that part is true - the idea has been floated more than once by the SVP in public that they would like to implement this. I suspect that they will wait, then keep building on their "success". They have to - they've built a support base on this kind of behaviour, which means this type of thing will get worse and worse, so long as the population allows it to go on.

mark 01.09.2007 11:12

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jordy (Post 99702)
My Last post was Information cut and pasted from todays news at Yahoo.com

I'm guessing that English Forum does not have written permission from yahoo.com to reproduce their articles in full. To avoid being sued (as other forums have been), I have removed this post. Please ensure compliance with our policy on this matter.

Nairda 01.09.2007 11:34

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mark (Post 99704)
I'm guessing that English Forum does not have written permission from yahoo.com to reproduce their articles in full. To avoid being sued (as other forums have been), I have removed this post. Please ensure compliance with our policy on this matter.

The article can be read at Yahoo.com http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070901/...ation_campaign

Nairda 01.09.2007 12:43

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 99701)
There is nothing in the wording of the initiative which allows for the deportation of relatives of convicted criminals.

However, it would surely be naive not to look at the intentions behind the campaign.

As SVP President Ueli Maurer himself said in launching the initiative "As soon as the first 10 families and their children have been expelled from the country, then things will get better at a stroke." This was reported by a number of agencies as he said it at a press conference.

It is quite clear to most political commentators that what the SVP are really interested in is playing the anti-foreigner card ahead of the national elections, of which negative imagery spreading fear of foreigners is a key component and a tactic they've used on numerous previous occasions. This is more important to the SVP than the cause the advertising is supposed to support.

To illustrate this point, the SVP is represented in the government (2 out of 7 members) and in both houses of parliament (63 seats in both houses). As such, it has 3 routes for proposing changes to existing legislation or new laws. However to be successful would require reasoned debate based on hard facts that were open to detailed scrutiny and alternative proposals, rather than scapegoating and scaremongering.

This route would also deny the SVP the opportunity of running a nasty populist campaign at the expense of 'foreigners' in the run up to the elections.

Whether it is black hands grabbing passports or black sheep stabbing white sheep, the underlying message being conveyed is clear.

Nairda 02.09.2007 14:38

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
The same story was carried in the UK press this weekend, which is not painting a great picture of Switzerland. It's also published online here:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/worl...=1&oref=slogin
http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/s...160239,00.html

dennis_ay 02.09.2007 16:07

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mark (Post 94650)
Australia has the highest percentage of residents born outside the country, but they aren't called foreigners, they are called citizens.

They are actually subjects, not citizens...

And to become a naturalised Australian has been far too easy in the past. Thankfully, they are now tightening it up to be a bit more sensible. I bet quite a few other countries wish they had done the same thing 30 years ago.

I see the posters as clever and provocative, but just like I don't like banning books, I think banning political discourse is a very dangerous slope, unless it SPECIFICALLY calls for violence against people and property (and that would capture a few radical green groups as well).

But I think they have a point! Many people are guests here, and just like I am on my best behaviour when a guest in another person's home, I am on my best behaviour in another person's country. And if I am not born here, then I am (to a greater or lesser extent) still a guest.

I think too many people think they have the God-given right to crap on everything right where they decide to linger. I wonder where the values of humility and gratitude have gone??? :msnsarcastic:

Nairda 02.09.2007 16:35

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
They can make their point without inciting hatred. That's the point.

chemgoddess 05.09.2007 12:04

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Interesting to see that this is making the International News.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070901/D8RCI31O0.html

Doesn't make the Swiss look too good honestly.

Eire 05.09.2007 13:37

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I'm probably about to earn myself a groan here...

but it seems to me that some members of this forum have gone a touch loc(o)(al).

I don't think anyone can deny the imagery in the adverts, and we all know that statistics can be played with in many ways to support the cause. I just don't understand how someone who is not from this country can support such a campaign. Even if you are naturalised Swiss... Would you think the same if a member of your family happened to get on the wrong side of the law and threatened your ability to stay here... (maybe this isn't in the current initiative but the SVP have certainly hinted at making the families of foreign criminals also responsible for the crime).

1 in 5 in CH are foreigners and these people are 4 times more likely to commit a crime...
Please someone show me the actual figures.

I think it is definitely along the lines of what Mark said, and the 1 in 5 includes naturalised Swiss who were born in another country.

chemgoddess 05.09.2007 14:37

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Please see post #82 in this thread. There is a link to some actual statistics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eire (Post 100769)
I
1 in 5 in CH are foreigners and these people are 4 times more likely to commit a crime...
Please someone show me the actual figures.

I think it is definitely along the lines of what Mark said, and the 1 in 5 includes naturalised Swiss who were born in another country.


Blonaybear 05.09.2007 15:14

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eire (Post 100769)
I'm probably about to earn myself a groan here...

but it seems to me that some members of this forum have gone a touch loc(o)(al).

I don't think anyone can deny the imagery in the adverts, and we all know that statistics can be played with in many ways to support the cause. I just don't understand how someone who is not from this country can support such a campaign. Even if you are naturalised Swiss... Would you think the same if a member of your family happened to get on the wrong side of the law and threatened your ability to stay here... (maybe this isn't in the current initiative but the SVP have certainly hinted at making the families of foreign criminals also responsible for the crime).

1 in 5 in CH are foreigners and these people are 4 times more likely to commit a crime...
Please someone show me the actual figures.

I think it is definitely along the lines of what Mark said, and the 1 in 5 includes naturalised Swiss who were born in another country.

The I in 5 does not include naturalised Swiss born in another country. There are 1.5 million foreigners resident in Switzerland. See this.
If you want to see the crime figures refer to the actual initiative document earlier in this thread. No one has yet disputed these.


Guest 05.09.2007 15:58

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
1 in 5 in CH are foreigners and these people are 4 times more likely to commit a crime... This seems to be repeatedly referred to in this rather loooong thread. Why is this so? Are we to use this as justification to "understand" why the SVP may have taken this course of action?

My humble opinion is that we are missing a very important factor here.... why are these stats so? Coming from South Africa and being non-white i should be very sensitive to such bollocks and indeed i am am BUT i believe the stats, as simliar things have happened back home.

Crime in South africa is now more likely to be committed by other African immigrants (Nigerian, Tanzanian etc..) so the stats go but the hard truth is that life is made very difficult by bearucrats eg. not being allowed to work when on refugee status. Could the stats here not reflect a similar trend?

chemgoddess 05.09.2007 16:08

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
As has been mentioned before: foreigners are also 4 times as likely to be convicted of a crime. Not necessarily 4 times more likely to commit crime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNAMan (Post 100876)
1 in 5 in CH are foreigners and these people are 4 times more likely to commit a crime... This seems to be repeatedly referred to in this rather loooong thread. Why is this so? Are we to use this as justification to "understand" why the SVP may have taken this course of action?

My humble opinion is that we are missing a very important factor here.... why are these stats so? Coming from South Africa and being non-white i should be very sensitive to such bollocks and indeed i am am BUT i believe the stats, as simliar things have happened back home.

Crime in South africa is now more likely to be committed by other African immigrants (Nigerian, Tanzanian etc..) so the stats go but the hard truth is that life is made very difficult by bearucrats eg. not being allowed to work when on refugee status. Could the stats here not reflect a similar trend?


Shorrick Mk2 05.09.2007 16:12

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 100878)
As has been mentioned before: foreigners are also 4 times as likely to be convicted of a crime. Not necessarily 4 times more likely to commit crime.

Ah, pay attention with the causality there, since conviction in a vast majority of cases implies existence and recognition of crime (lest you argue acquittal / case dropping based on racial/national distinction is common); and not the other way around.

chemgoddess 05.09.2007 16:23

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
From what I understood from the numbers reported in the link post #90 they state that foreigners are 4 times more likely than Swiss nationals to be "convicted" of a crime. Basically to me, that means is that if you are a foreigner and you commit a crime you are 4 times as likely to go to jail/be convicted as a Swiss person who commits a crime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shorrick Mk2 (Post 100879)
Ah, pay attention with the causality there, since conviction in a vast majority of cases implies existence and recognition of crime (lest you argue acquittal / case dropping based on racial/national distinction is common); and not the other way around.


terryhall 05.09.2007 16:28

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
^ that's the way that I read it, too.

I only just realised today from reading some of these links to articles elsewhere that the SVP are one of the largest parties in Switzerland :msnshock: - and this is expected to increase their vote still further?!

Yours concernedly, etc etc....

dennis_ay 05.09.2007 16:35

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 100884)
From what I understood from the numbers reported in the link I referenced in post #82 they state that foreigners are 4 times more likely than Swiss nationals to be "convicted" of a crime. Basically to me, that means is that if you are a foreigner and you commit a crime you are 4 times as likely to go to jail/be convicted as a Swiss person who commits a crime.

Stick to Chemistry.

chemgoddess 05.09.2007 16:44

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Okay, being that I obviously don't understand anything other than science.:rolleyes:

Would you be so kind as to explain to me what exactly it means than? Remember use small words and simple sentences as I tend to be a bit slow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennis_ay (Post 100891)
Stick to Chemistry.


owls_79 05.09.2007 17:07

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Moving back on topic..... Did anyone see the articles in 20 minuten etc about the 'Zottel' game? As far as i can understand (my german is not so good) you take control of a swiss goat and have to kick all the black sheep across the border :eek: hmm, that's obviously not aimed at kids, get them while they're young and impressionable:rolleyes:

Blonaybear 05.09.2007 17:16

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by owls_79 (Post 100908)
Moving back on topic..... Did anyone see the articles in 20 minuten etc about the 'Zottel' game? As far as i can understand (my german is not so good) you take control of a swiss goat and have to kick all the black sheep across the border :eek: hmm, that's obviously not aimed at kids, get them while they're young and impressionable:rolleyes:

Its here in German or French.

Nairda 05.09.2007 20:02

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Scary.
Hopefully they'll be a hacked version kicking Blocher out :p.

Polorise 06.09.2007 08:56

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Picked this up in the French edition of 20 Minuten on the train yesterday : Blocher président? Urs Schwaller s'y oppose

Fair argument je pense ..

cobenz 06.09.2007 13:28

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 94172)
When a serious crime is reported here the nationality of the transgressor is mentioned and when you see that the majority of, for example, drug traffickers are foreigners with permits it’s bound to have an effect.

So drug trafficking is a crime here but offering legal drugs to teenagers and white collared bankers through hospitals and health centres is not ? It appears to me that one would go to great lengths here to reform errant teens but not hesitate to prosecute a foreigner who is feeding a family of 4 ?

Rich 06.09.2007 13:44

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6980766.stm

this campaign starting to get quite a lot of attention from outside Ch now.

simon3717 06.09.2007 14:02

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
and rightly so - when my friends from the UK came over to visit and saw this they were pretty stunned at how blatant this poster was

Uncle Max 06.09.2007 16:29

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
The Hiltl chain of vegetarian restaurants are famous for using vegetables in place of meat products in their advertising - eg, a carrot in a Hot Dog bun.

In the light of the Zottel campaign, (who's meant to be a goat kicking out the black sheep), they've developed the following:

http://www.steinis.ch/wp-content/upl.../09/zottel.jpg

(Trans: On this one occasion we're willing to offer meat on our menu: the Zottel spit roast)

Yea for Hiltl!

Source: http://www.persoenlich.com/news/show...m?newsid=70210

Nairda 07.09.2007 01:36

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
http://www.independent.co.uk/multime...07_254705a.jpg

This story takes up the entire front page of Friday's Independent newspaper (in the UK) and has been reviewed on many of this evening's TV news programmes - and not favourably.

Against a large Swiss flag, the headline reads:
Switzerland is known as a haven of peace and neutrality. But today it is home to a new extremism that has alarmed the United Nations. Proposals for draconian new laws that target the country's immigrants have been condemned as unjust and racist. A poster campaign, the work of its leading political party, is decried as xenophobic. Has Switzerland become... EUROPE'S HEART OF DARKNESS?

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2938940.ece

GVA offline 07.09.2007 07:31

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 101518)
http://www.independent.co.uk/multime...07_254705a.jpg

This story takes up the entire front page of Friday's Independent newspaper (in the UK) and has been reviewed on many of this evening's TV news programmes - and not favourably.

Against a large Swiss flag, the headline reads:
Switzerland is known as a haven of peace and neutrality. But today it is home to a new extremism that has alarmed the United Nations. Proposals for draconian new laws that target the country's immigrants have been condemned as unjust and racist. A poster campaign, the work of its leading political party, is decried as xenophobic. Has Switzerland become... EUROPE'S HEART OF DARKNESS?

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2938940.ece



HAHAHAH that's priceless lolololololz

Simon 07.09.2007 10:45

Switzerland: Europe's heart of Darkness?
 
The Independent's take on the SVP...

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2938940.ece

"It will be the first such law in Europe since the Nazi practice of Sippenhaft – kin liability – whereby relatives of criminals were held responsible for their crimes and punished equally"

vwlarson 07.09.2007 11:00

Re: Switzerland: Europe's heart of Darkness?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon (Post 101571)
The Independent's take on the SVP...

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2938940.ece

"It will be the first such law in Europe since the Nazi practice of Sippenhaft – kin liability – whereby relatives of criminals were held responsible for their crimes and punished equally"


Simon...
interesting article....

do we really think a law like this will be past!? First, it is just a campaign to collect the signatures at the moment...wait a couple years...then referendum...wait some more...then maybe, if majority (i highly doubt it) it may come into practice...

let's see what happens....

Rahul 07.09.2007 11:19

Re: Switzerland: Europe's heart of Darkness?
 
It is really disgusting to witness these actions which are tantamount to what were practised in Nazi Germany. If the SVP has its way, it might as well sentence foreigners to concentration camps. The recent spike in extreme right wing crime is only compounded by such posters/referendums.
Although the minority of the intellectuals in this country very well realise the worth which migrant communities bring in the economy, the majority of the dumb masses unexceptionally succumb to these fear gimmicks.

I have just three words to say Shame, shame & shame.

Richard 07.09.2007 11:32

Re: Switzerland: Europe's heart of Darkness?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahul (Post 101595)
It is really disgusting to witness these actions which are tantamount to what were practised in Nazi Germany. If the SVP has its way, it might as well sentence foreigners to concentration camps. The recent spike in extreme right wing crime is only compounded by such posters/referendums.
Although the minority of the intellectuals in this country very well realise the worth which migrant communities bring in the economy, the majority of the dumb masses unexceptionally succumb to these fear gimmicks.

I have just three words to say Shame, shame & shame.

As always things get in the media and get overplayed. Lets paint Switzerland as a Nazi Germany of the future etc etc.

Deserved yes and just lets hope it does not mean that countries start campaigns to ban Swiss goods and services.

What is the primary message though? If a person commits a serious offence deport them when the sentence is finished. So is that so bad? And even if you think it is check the law in most other countries, probably also yours - you will find they too have this law! And just to make doubly sure it does depend on the definition of serious. Murder, rape, treason, robbery are serious, burglary not.

The problem with this campaign is twofold:
1. The declaration of guilt for the rest of the family. That is not just a problem, but entirely unacceptable and against the principles of human rights. And anyway probably unenforceable.
2. The disgraceful and racist campaign of posters which would lead to court cases for those responsible in most other countries...

The Laundry Man 07.09.2007 11:46

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Anyone seen the front page leader of the Independent today?

http://www.independent.co.uk/

"It will be the first such law in Europe since the Nazi practice of Sippenhaft – kin liability – whereby relatives of criminals were held responsible for their crimes and punished equally."

Makes yer feel proud to be here, don't it?

I expect there's some folk in this 'paradise' are getting all nostalgic right now too................

My motto is: fight them from within: they need all the educated white boys and girls from around the world to keep their economy on top and so it's up to those that are here to keep questioning, confronting and challenging this kind of bullcrap wherever you see it and don't back down if they give it the "none of your business, you're not swiss" line.........:msnmad:

Blonaybear 07.09.2007 13:52

Re: Switzerland: Europe's heart of Darkness?
 
Can someone explain where the idea of deporting familys has come from as there does not appear to be any wording in the actual initiative which would permit this.

Blonaybear 07.09.2007 14:12

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
The same story was in The Scotsman but this has a selection of readers comments which make interesting reading.

There was a discussion on TSR1 with Christopher Blocker which you can find here (in French).

Where does it say, in the actual wording of the initiative, anything about whole families being deported ?


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