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-   -   Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters] (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/10275-security-creation-initiative-aka-svp-black-sheep-grabbing-hands-posters.html)

Guest 16.08.2007 13:36

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polorise (Post 93441)
Seems the knuckle draggers at the SVP are getting a little smarter. Flying into Kloten yesterday evening, I saw something quite surprising. Taking a leaf out of Syngenta's book, they have a planting on the approach top the runway :



three bauers were siting in the row in front of me & started in on "Das stimmt" etc & made a couple of really crasss remarks ... I felt rather sorry for the elderly Jewish gent sitting next to me, who was the obvious target of their jibes. Wankers :msnmad:

Has anyone else noticed this.

What puzzles me is that these sorts of things are even allowed at all. Surely CH has proven that it is not as progressive as one would think... hence does this really fall under some freedom of expression clause.

I can think of lots of other examples of countries with progressive democracies who outlaw public displays such as this... why is CH any different? (given that they have just as shameful a history as any other modern western democracy)

Lob 16.08.2007 14:05

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBehaving (Post 89151)
:D no, never!

Just do as the JUSO (Young SP) recommend and send the empty forms back to the SVP...my mum did it this morning, she was laughing all the way to the post office...

I can confirm my mate went a little postal with the pritt stick before sending his back. "Prise that one open, Bar Stewards!" I think he said as he rammed it into the post box ;)

AbFab 16.08.2007 14:08

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DNAMan (Post 93598)
What puzzles me is that these sorts of things are even allowed at all. Surely CH has proven that it is not as progressive as one would think... hence does this really fall under some freedom of expression clause.

I can think of lots of other examples of countries with progressive democracies who outlaw public displays such as this... why is CH any different? (given that they have just as shameful a history as any other modern western democracy)

It would be an odd old world if some farmer was allowed to mess up his harvest with:
Quote:

Meine zuhause
Unsere Schweiz
SVP
My home. Our Switzerland. Nope I can't find much wrong with that. It's hardly "Britons never never will be slaves". Am I missing something?

Polorise 16.08.2007 14:18

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AbFab (Post 93614)
My home. Our Switzerland. Nope I can't find much wrong with that. It's hardly "Britons never never will be slaves". Am I missing something?

I am commenting on the immediate reaction of the three "gentlemen" sitting in front of me, who started into some ugly comments regards "Juden" & "Schwartzer", as I had an orthodox Jew sitting next to me & there were more than a few people of dark skin on the flight.

If you read my original post again, I said smarter, as this is a double edged piece of advertising - "My home. Our Switzerland"encourages the mindless bigotry we are discussing in this thread as a whole. The reasoning behind my post was to address that & also to share some first hand experience.

Blonaybear 16.08.2007 14:33

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polorise (Post 93441)
Seems the knuckle draggers at the SVP are getting a little smarter. Flying into Kloten yesterday evening, I saw something quite surprising. Taking a leaf out of Syngenta's book, they have a planting on the approach top the runway :



three bauers were siting in the row in front of me & started in on "Das stimmt" etc & made a couple of really crasss remarks ... I felt rather sorry for the elderly Jewish gent sitting next to me, who was the obvious target of their jibes. Wankers :msnmad:

Has anyone else noticed this.

The sign says:

My Home
Our Switzerland

Why is this considered offensive ?

AbFab 16.08.2007 14:34

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polorise (Post 93619)
I am commenting on the immediate reaction of the three "gentlemen" sitting in front of me, who started into some ugly comments regards "Juden" & "Schwartzer", as I had an orthodox Jew sitting next to me & there were more than a few people of dark skin on the flight.

If you read my original post again, I said smarter, as this is a double edged piece of advertising - "My home. Our Switzerland"encourages the mindless bigotry we are discussing in this thread as a whole. The reasoning behind my post was to address that & also to share some first hand experience.

And I'm replying to DNAman like my quote says... :msnshock:

terryhall 16.08.2007 14:35

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
To me the inference is clear, that anyone not born and raised in Switzerland should be seen as a "lesser citizen" because it is (by definition) not "their Switzerland". Certainly it bothers me.

AbFab 16.08.2007 14:40

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by terryhall (Post 93624)
To me the inference is clear, that anyone not born and raised in Switzerland should be seen as a "lesser citizen" because it is (by definition) not "their Switzerland". Certainly it bothers me.

I have adopted Swiss nationality (keeping my British one too) and find the idea that passengers on a plane landing at Zurich airport could find this statement bothersome in any way, seem to odd to say the least. ..

Blonaybear 16.08.2007 14:54

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by terryhall (Post 93624)
To me the inference is clear, ....

Itís interesting to note that all through this thread itís not what the SVP/UDC actually say but what people think they say thatís being discussed.

Donít confuse me with facts, Iíve made up my mind.

Yokine 16.08.2007 15:19

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Australia certainly deports criminals who have not taken up citizenship. Something I agree with. Granted, it's much easier to gain Australian citizenship compared to Switzerland. Examples:
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/s...005962,00.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...10/1635662.htm

As has been said before, the black sheep (and airport greeting) are classic works of propaganda. Relatively innocent at face value, but the true target audience takes it as intended. Another Australian example is the local SVP equivalent Wikipedia reference-linkOne Nation, meaning "Our White Nation".

Even the SVP spin doctor commenting on the vandalised sign is classic. "The impression develops......all Swiss are Nazis and the Jews constitute a majority of the criminals in Switzerland". I'm sure he realises the intent was to compare the SVP to Nazis and their views on a minority.

Also, the poster in my neighborhood has been altered with SVP written on the black sheep. The good Swiss kick out the SVP black sheep.

Blonaybear 16.08.2007 16:12

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
It seems that many people have decided that the Ďtargetí of this initiative is black people but how can this be ? The Ďtargetí group will, in effect, appoint themselves by committing one of the very serious crimes listed. Itís optional, donít commit the crime and you canít be targeted.

terryhall 16.08.2007 16:23

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I think the "target" of the advert (i.e. who is it designed to appeal to) is actually that small element of any society who are happy to use whatever excuse and/or political vehicle is available to voice their small mindedness and bigotry.

In the UK we had the National Front, and now have the BNP, it seems over here we have the SVP. The worrying thing to me, is how it is much more readily accepted by the mainstream over here.

(For example, I can't imagine the BNP running the same ad campaign on rotating billboards in Paddington, Kings Cross etc - but the SVP have these up at Hauptbanhof in Zurich!)

Blonaybear 16.08.2007 17:29

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by terryhall (Post 93698)
I think the "target" of the advert (i.e. who is it designed to appeal to) is actually that small element of any society who are happy to use whatever excuse and/or political vehicle is available to voice their small mindedness and bigotry.

In the UK we had the National Front, and now have the BNP, it seems over here we have the SVP. The worrying thing to me, is how it is much more readily accepted by the mainstream over here.

(For example, I can't imagine the BNP running the same ad campaign on rotating billboards in Paddington, Kings Cross etc - but the SVP have these up at Hauptbanhof in Zurich!)

My comments actually refered to the Ďtargetí of the initiative itself and not the Ďtargetí of the advert. If, as you say, the Ďtargetí of the advert is just a small element it seems pointless as, surely, they would want to appeal to a majority, not a minority ?

Firstly, letís make it clear that I donít support the BNP but I think that one of the reasons that it they attracts support in the UK is that it addresses the problems that worry people while the other political parties ignore them and spend their time attacking the BNP instead. Consequently the BNP end up as the only party that seems to recognise a problem and offer a solution.

It seems to me that the situation is much the same here. The various political parties are so busy attacking the SVP/UDC they are ignoring the fact that serious crime committed by foreigners is a big concern, certainly in this part of the country, but they are not addressing it. The SVP/UDC is the only political party apparently prepared to face up to the issue.

terryhall 16.08.2007 17:49

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 93731)
Firstly, letís make it clear that I donít support the BNP but I think that one of the reasons that it they attracts support in the UK is that it addresses the problems that worry people while the other political parties ignore them and spend their time attacking the BNP instead. Consequently the BNP end up as the only party that seems to recognise a problem and offer a solution.

I don't think anyone could call this a solution to any problem...that's what the BNP is in my opinion, political front to it or no.

It boils down to perception. I agree with the poster above who questioned the fariness of any system that punishes the criminal twice - particularly when it doesn't do the same to other criminals based solely on nationality. If that is "the problem" you refer to, then I guess I don't understand where you're coming from, sorry.

Guest 16.08.2007 17:53

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 93731)

It seems to me that the situation is much the same here. The various political parties are so busy attacking the SVP/UDC they are ignoring the fact that serious crime committed by foreigners is a big concern, certainly in this part of the country, but they are not addressing it. The SVP/UDC is the only political party apparently prepared to face up to the issue.

Certainly so, i think people have an issue with how they are addressing the issue. I know it might be an extreme example but this harks back to the old days of Apartheid in South Africa..... there was a very clear "whites only" distinction made (with the pre-requisite signage).... in ZŁrich there are clear delineations made (albeit very subtly) where entire residential areas are "Swiss only" and I have heard that there are entire villages in rural CH where foreigners are unwelcome (many swiss people have told me where not to travel).

I am intrigued by expats who have adopted swiss citizenship..... do you really feel swiss?

Blonaybear 16.08.2007 18:21

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DNAMan (Post 93741)
I have heard that there are entire villages in rural CH where foreigners are unwelcome (many swiss people have told me where not to travel).

Really ? where ?

Blonaybear 16.08.2007 18:31

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by terryhall (Post 93739)
It boils down to perception. I agree with the poster above who questioned the fariness of any system that punishes the criminal twice - particularly when it doesn't do the same to other criminals based solely on nationality. If that is "the problem" you refer to, then I guess I don't understand where you're coming from, sorry.

The ďproblemĒ is that people feel that if someone is granted the right to reside here as a guest in this country and they then commit a serious crime they should not be allowed to continue residing here after their sentence is spent.

AbFab 16.08.2007 18:54

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by terryhall (Post 93739)
I don't think anyone could call this a solution to any problem...that's what the BNP is in my opinion, political front to it or no.

It boils down to perception. I agree with the poster above who questioned the fariness of any system that punishes the criminal twice - particularly when it doesn't do the same to other criminals based solely on nationality. If that is "the problem" you refer to, then I guess I don't understand where you're coming from, sorry.

I see where Bloneybear is coming from.

Of course the BNP are not the solution and the SVP don't have the solution either, but they have recognised and addressed a concern that worries many people Switzerland. While other parties pretend it isn't a concern.

The problem is not the SVP or BNP, but the situation that allows them to gain support...

mark 16.08.2007 18:57

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 93771)
The ďproblemĒ is that people feel that if someone is granted the right to reside here as a guest in this country and they then commit a serious crime they should not be allowed to continue residing here after their sentence is spent.

The problem with granting someone a right to live here as a guest, is that it comes with certain obligations. Obligations such as treating that person according to not only established laws, but also human rights traditions (many of which Switzerland has had a hand in setting up). Unfortunately this also means that some of these guests (just like members of the native population) must be treated fairly and consistently in the case where they commit crimes. In my opinion, if a country is not prepared to treat both foreigners and non-foreigners according to the same laws, then they should never have issued them with a residence permit in the first place. But once they have, then they have to stand behind this commitment.

Now what about those foreigners who did not move here, but who were born here and grew up here (of which there are a large number). Or those who have parents who were born here? They are denied citizenship, so in the case of committing one of these crimes, where would they be deported to? Perhaps to a country where they've never been, or possibly don't even speak the language?

Are there provisions in this proposal to recognise the fact that Swiss-born foreigners will be treated as Swiss for the purposes of this legislation? I doubt that very much.

And before we get all righteous and judge those who commit crimes as being deserving of their punishments (no matter how harsh those punishments may be), let's stop and consider if every single one of us has ever been on the wrong side of the law. Ever done something silly when you were young enough not to know better? Maybe you were caught for it, maybe you weren't. All I'm saying is that people make mistakes, and I hope that our legal system will try to show some compassion and some steps toward reforming people rather than simply exporting them.

I see the biggest danger in all this as a case of escalation. When the majority can vote on issues which affect the minority (who cannot vote), there's nothing to stop subsequent proposals from tightening these laws. After all, asylum laws have been tightened seven times (can't remember the exact number, but that will do) in the last years. If this passes, what's to stop the SVP proposing another round of tightening.

Did anyone notice the front page of 20min yesterday?

It's a story about the boss of the SVP making a television appearance for some kind of grass eating competition. He got plenty of newspaper coverage for it - but did anyone notice that the grass samples were numbered with little logos of the same sheep in their ad? Or that he was wearing glasses made of grass, also with a logo of that sheep on the front.

Hats off to the SVP - they have great graphics, great spin doctors and and excellent awareness of marketing. The funny part here is that they are spending LOADs on advertising, but they are only at the signature stage - they don't need that many signatures, why invest so heavily in marketing at this point in time? Because when the real vote comes up, they'll bring out the same graphics for their yes campaign. Or perhaps the sheep will come out to push another cause. It's simply a case of building a brand.

What amazes me the most is that newspapers and advertising companies are all too happy to run this ad. I would have thought that a paper would look at the ad and declare that it was too controversial to print, and simply refuse. Papers in other countries would refuse. But the astounding this is that they printed it.

Now 20min is a trash paper - I'm not too surprised. But why did the NZZ, an internationally respected paper, run the ad?

Can anyone ever recall seeing so much advertising from a single organisation on a single topic? In my seven years here, I've never seen anything advertised this intently. There's a lot of money behind this, and I suspect it has more to do with trying to build a base for the SVP itself, rather than the issue being proposed.

AbFab 16.08.2007 18:58

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DNAMan (Post 93741)
<snip>

I am intrigued by expats who have adopted swiss citizenship..... do you really feel swiss?

As Swiss as someone who's mother tongue, education, upbringing etc. etc. is English can. Which is not much.

But when go back the the UK (no longer 'home') after nearly 20 years here I then realise how 'Swiss' I have become in my thinking and attitudes...


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