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  #161  
Old 31.08.2007, 10:28
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

It seems to me that few really have a problem with deporting someone who doesn't have a permit to be here, or even deporting someone who is from a foreign country who has committed a grave crime. It seems like the mechanism already exists in law for this to happen anyway.

But for sure the poster is something entirely more sinister. The campaign in no way justifies that poster.

I liked the alternative poster from Bern of the two sheep kissing, and I noticed someone had been paying attention when I saw a Swastika drawn in the eye of one of the white sheep, on a poster in HB. I heard some young Swiss on the train this morning denouncing the posters also. It occurred to me that some printed teeshirts featuring different coloured sheep and an alternative message, might not have been a bad idea for someone with some artistic talent. I reckon there must be a fair few Swiss that don't go along with the SVP view.

Last edited by adrian76; 31.08.2007 at 10:53.
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  #162  
Old 31.08.2007, 12:42
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

There's one I've only seen in magazines with the top left sheep dead from a stabbing. I've always wanted to write "murderer" on the one standing in the top right watching the goings on. Or in the others, paint a robber mask on one of the white ones.
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  #163  
Old 31.08.2007, 15:37
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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I really like the SVP spokesmans joined up thinking on his response to UN "intervention" (wtf?) -

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The People's Party dismissed Dične's intervention as "worthless", describing the UN special rapporteur on racism as a troublemaker who never had a good word to say about Switzerland.

so thats all right then ...

twunts
I'm not sure which is worse, the SVP's approach or that it is likely to achieve them around 25% of the popular vote .
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  #164  
Old 01.09.2007, 09:58
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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The nationalist Swiss People's Party is proposing a deportation policy that anti-racism campaigners say evokes Nazi-era practices. Under the plan, entire families would be expelled if their children are convicted of a violent crime, drug offenses or benefits fraud.
There is nothing in the wording of the initiative which allows for the deportation of relatives of convicted criminals.
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  #165  
Old 01.09.2007, 10:00
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

My Last post was Information cut and pasted from todays news at Yahoo.com
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  #166  
Old 01.09.2007, 10:09
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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There is nothing in the wording of the initiative which allows for the deportation of relatives of convicted criminals.
While that part is true - the idea has been floated more than once by the SVP in public that they would like to implement this. I suspect that they will wait, then keep building on their "success". They have to - they've built a support base on this kind of behaviour, which means this type of thing will get worse and worse, so long as the population allows it to go on.
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  #167  
Old 01.09.2007, 10:12
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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My Last post was Information cut and pasted from todays news at Yahoo.com
I'm guessing that English Forum does not have written permission from yahoo.com to reproduce their articles in full. To avoid being sued (as other forums have been), I have removed this post. Please ensure compliance with our policy on this matter.
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  #168  
Old 01.09.2007, 10:34
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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I'm guessing that English Forum does not have written permission from yahoo.com to reproduce their articles in full. To avoid being sued (as other forums have been), I have removed this post. Please ensure compliance with our policy on this matter.
The article can be read at Yahoo.com http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070901/...ation_campaign
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  #169  
Old 01.09.2007, 11:43
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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There is nothing in the wording of the initiative which allows for the deportation of relatives of convicted criminals.
However, it would surely be naive not to look at the intentions behind the campaign.

As SVP President Ueli Maurer himself said in launching the initiative "As soon as the first 10 families and their children have been expelled from the country, then things will get better at a stroke." This was reported by a number of agencies as he said it at a press conference.

It is quite clear to most political commentators that what the SVP are really interested in is playing the anti-foreigner card ahead of the national elections, of which negative imagery spreading fear of foreigners is a key component and a tactic they've used on numerous previous occasions. This is more important to the SVP than the cause the advertising is supposed to support.

To illustrate this point, the SVP is represented in the government (2 out of 7 members) and in both houses of parliament (63 seats in both houses). As such, it has 3 routes for proposing changes to existing legislation or new laws. However to be successful would require reasoned debate based on hard facts that were open to detailed scrutiny and alternative proposals, rather than scapegoating and scaremongering.

This route would also deny the SVP the opportunity of running a nasty populist campaign at the expense of 'foreigners' in the run up to the elections.

Whether it is black hands grabbing passports or black sheep stabbing white sheep, the underlying message being conveyed is clear.
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  #170  
Old 02.09.2007, 13:38
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

The same story was carried in the UK press this weekend, which is not painting a great picture of Switzerland. It's also published online here:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/worl...=1&oref=slogin
http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/s...160239,00.html
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  #171  
Old 02.09.2007, 15:07
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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Australia has the highest percentage of residents born outside the country, but they aren't called foreigners, they are called citizens.
They are actually subjects, not citizens...

And to become a naturalised Australian has been far too easy in the past. Thankfully, they are now tightening it up to be a bit more sensible. I bet quite a few other countries wish they had done the same thing 30 years ago.

I see the posters as clever and provocative, but just like I don't like banning books, I think banning political discourse is a very dangerous slope, unless it SPECIFICALLY calls for violence against people and property (and that would capture a few radical green groups as well).

But I think they have a point! Many people are guests here, and just like I am on my best behaviour when a guest in another person's home, I am on my best behaviour in another person's country. And if I am not born here, then I am (to a greater or lesser extent) still a guest.

I think too many people think they have the God-given right to crap on everything right where they decide to linger. I wonder where the values of humility and gratitude have gone???
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  #172  
Old 02.09.2007, 15:35
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

They can make their point without inciting hatred. That's the point.
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  #173  
Old 05.09.2007, 11:04
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

Interesting to see that this is making the International News.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070901/D8RCI31O0.html

Doesn't make the Swiss look too good honestly.
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  #174  
Old 05.09.2007, 12:37
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

I'm probably about to earn myself a groan here...

but it seems to me that some members of this forum have gone a touch loc(o)(al).

I don't think anyone can deny the imagery in the adverts, and we all know that statistics can be played with in many ways to support the cause. I just don't understand how someone who is not from this country can support such a campaign. Even if you are naturalised Swiss... Would you think the same if a member of your family happened to get on the wrong side of the law and threatened your ability to stay here... (maybe this isn't in the current initiative but the SVP have certainly hinted at making the families of foreign criminals also responsible for the crime).

1 in 5 in CH are foreigners and these people are 4 times more likely to commit a crime...
Please someone show me the actual figures.

I think it is definitely along the lines of what Mark said, and the 1 in 5 includes naturalised Swiss who were born in another country.
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  #175  
Old 05.09.2007, 13:37
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

Please see post #82 in this thread. There is a link to some actual statistics.

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I
1 in 5 in CH are foreigners and these people are 4 times more likely to commit a crime...
Please someone show me the actual figures.

I think it is definitely along the lines of what Mark said, and the 1 in 5 includes naturalised Swiss who were born in another country.
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  #176  
Old 05.09.2007, 14:14
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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I'm probably about to earn myself a groan here...

but it seems to me that some members of this forum have gone a touch loc(o)(al).

I don't think anyone can deny the imagery in the adverts, and we all know that statistics can be played with in many ways to support the cause. I just don't understand how someone who is not from this country can support such a campaign. Even if you are naturalised Swiss... Would you think the same if a member of your family happened to get on the wrong side of the law and threatened your ability to stay here... (maybe this isn't in the current initiative but the SVP have certainly hinted at making the families of foreign criminals also responsible for the crime).

1 in 5 in CH are foreigners and these people are 4 times more likely to commit a crime...
Please someone show me the actual figures.

I think it is definitely along the lines of what Mark said, and the 1 in 5 includes naturalised Swiss who were born in another country.
The I in 5 does not include naturalised Swiss born in another country. There are 1.5 million foreigners resident in Switzerland. See this.
If you want to see the crime figures refer to the actual initiative document earlier in this thread. No one has yet disputed these.

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  #177  
Old 05.09.2007, 14:58
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

1 in 5 in CH are foreigners and these people are 4 times more likely to commit a crime... This seems to be repeatedly referred to in this rather loooong thread. Why is this so? Are we to use this as justification to "understand" why the SVP may have taken this course of action?

My humble opinion is that we are missing a very important factor here.... why are these stats so? Coming from South Africa and being non-white i should be very sensitive to such bollocks and indeed i am am BUT i believe the stats, as simliar things have happened back home.

Crime in South africa is now more likely to be committed by other African immigrants (Nigerian, Tanzanian etc..) so the stats go but the hard truth is that life is made very difficult by bearucrats eg. not being allowed to work when on refugee status. Could the stats here not reflect a similar trend?
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  #178  
Old 05.09.2007, 15:08
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

As has been mentioned before: foreigners are also 4 times as likely to be convicted of a crime. Not necessarily 4 times more likely to commit crime.

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1 in 5 in CH are foreigners and these people are 4 times more likely to commit a crime... This seems to be repeatedly referred to in this rather loooong thread. Why is this so? Are we to use this as justification to "understand" why the SVP may have taken this course of action?

My humble opinion is that we are missing a very important factor here.... why are these stats so? Coming from South Africa and being non-white i should be very sensitive to such bollocks and indeed i am am BUT i believe the stats, as simliar things have happened back home.

Crime in South africa is now more likely to be committed by other African immigrants (Nigerian, Tanzanian etc..) so the stats go but the hard truth is that life is made very difficult by bearucrats eg. not being allowed to work when on refugee status. Could the stats here not reflect a similar trend?
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  #179  
Old 05.09.2007, 15:12
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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As has been mentioned before: foreigners are also 4 times as likely to be convicted of a crime. Not necessarily 4 times more likely to commit crime.
Ah, pay attention with the causality there, since conviction in a vast majority of cases implies existence and recognition of crime (lest you argue acquittal / case dropping based on racial/national distinction is common); and not the other way around.
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  #180  
Old 05.09.2007, 15:23
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

From what I understood from the numbers reported in the link post #90 they state that foreigners are 4 times more likely than Swiss nationals to be "convicted" of a crime. Basically to me, that means is that if you are a foreigner and you commit a crime you are 4 times as likely to go to jail/be convicted as a Swiss person who commits a crime.

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Ah, pay attention with the causality there, since conviction in a vast majority of cases implies existence and recognition of crime (lest you argue acquittal / case dropping based on racial/national distinction is common); and not the other way around.

Last edited by chemgoddess; 05.09.2007 at 15:47. Reason: Wrong Post refernce
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