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-   -   Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters] (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/10275-security-creation-initiative-aka-svp-black-sheep-grabbing-hands-posters.html)

chemgoddess 24.07.2007 12:22

Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]
 
Can anybody who speaks German help me understand what exactly this initiative is about. I can't seem to find any information in English and it's a tad confusing trying to use my minimal german along with google translate.

www.ausschaffungsinitiative.ch

From an ad in today's "20 Minuten" (which is kind of strange as the picture show's a bunch of white sheep kicking a black sheep out of Switzerland):confused:


"Sicherheit schaffen. Mit der Ausschaffungsinitiative können Ausländer, die in der schweiz schwere Verbrechen begehen, endlich konsequent des landes verweisen. So schaffen wir mehr Sicherheit für unsere Kinder, Frauen und Männer."

Thanks.

Polorise 24.07.2007 12:28

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chemgoddess (Post 86305)
Can anybody who speaks German help me understand what exactly this initiative is about. I can't seem to find any information in English and it's a tad confusing trying to use my minimal german along with google translate.

www.ausschaffungsinitiative.ch

From an ad in today's "20 Minuten" (which is kind of strange as the picture show's a bunch of white sheep kicking a black sheep out of Switzerland):confused:


"Sicherheit schaffen. Mit der Ausschaffungsinitiative können Ausländer, die in der schweiz schwere Verbrechen begehen, endlich konsequent des landes verweisen. So schaffen wir mehr Sicherheit für unsere Kinder, Frauen und Männer."

Thanks.

Its an SVP initiative, saw this in Der Bund this morning. Basically its all to do with kicking out the "black sheep" ; i.e. social undesirables & foreigners that get convicted of felonies ... however am sure there is a subtext to the picture ... pathetic really

Lob 24.07.2007 12:42

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
at least they bothered this time to get their site done in more than just German. 19/10 for bad web design though :)

Nairda 24.07.2007 14:11

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Yep, it's about "consistently deporting foreign criminals to ensure security for our children, women and men" (no Swiss commit serious criminal offences). The image suggests to the typical SVP voter that this will cleanse the country off non-whites, who presumably commit all the crime. I suspect the SVP definition of 'black' also includes 'Jugos' (non-Swiss youth of Yogoslav parentage).

Also being discussed in the white and non-white foreigners thread...
http://www.englishforum.ch/complaint...html#post86345

Blonaybear 24.07.2007 14:12

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
You'll find a brief explanation of the initiative here.

Polorise 24.07.2007 14:16

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 86363)
Yep, it's about "consistently deporting foreign criminals to ensure security for our children, women and men" (no Swiss commit serious criminal offences). The image suggests to the typical SVP voter that this will cleanse the country off non-whites, who presumably commit all the crime. I suspect the SVP definition of 'black' also includes 'Jugos' (non-Swiss youth of Yogoslav parentage).

quote this morning from a Swiss colleague after I showed him the link :

Quote:

Boah, it's pathetic have never seen the add but heard about the initiative….. It's about kicking foreigners out of the country when committing crimes. In case of non adults there shall even be a clause to kick out the whole family when youngsters play ganster…
I wonder where they want to send families of young criminal swiss citizens…????

dawiz 24.07.2007 14:17

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polorise (Post 86311)
Its an SVP initiative, saw this in Der Bund this morning. Basically its all to do with kicking out the "black sheep" ; i.e. social undesirables & foreigners that get convicted of felonies ... however am sure there is a subtext to the picture ... pathetic really

While I'm most definitely not an SVP voter, the proposed new law isn't really as extraordinary is it may look at first glance. Switzerland has extremely mild laws when it comes to asylum seekers and legal aliens who commit serious crimes. I don't know of any other country in the world who will let immigrants that committed murder stay in the country or let them in again after a few years of being banned from coming back. In France, for example, it's common practice to deport whole families if minors in that family commit serious crimes. You can get deported from the US very quickly, too. And former legal aliens who became British citizens can lose their citizenship and get kicked out if they are convicted under the terrorist act - an idea that initially was included in the initiative as well but went too far even for the SVP.

I might still vote against the initiative, though, mainly because it was initiated by the SVP.

xynth 24.07.2007 14:18

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
The concept itself is nothing I would worry about. Why would it bother you that foreigner criminals will be deported? Should the swiss just cram everyone into swiss prisions so we can all pay for them?

Sure, this doesn't solve the cause of the criminality, but principally I have nothing against criminals being deported.

Now the execution of the concept might be where things get dodgy.

chemgoddess 24.07.2007 14:22

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
That's more what I was curious about. I have no problem with the Swiss kicking out murderers, rapists, etc. That might very well be the angle that the SVP is presenting. I would like to know what the fine print says, exactly what all the initiative entails.

Regardless, the cartoon that goes with it I find deplorable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xynth (Post 86371)
The concept itself is nothing I would worry about. Why would it bother you that foreigner criminals will be deported? Should the swiss just cram everyone into swiss prisions so we can all pay for them?

Sure, this doesn't solve the cause of the criminality, but principally I have nothing against criminals being deported.

Now the execution of the concept might be where things get dodgy.


Blonaybear 24.07.2007 14:31

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dawiz (Post 86370)
I might still vote against the initiative, though, mainly because it was initiated by the SVP.


Surely you should consider an initiative on its merits and make your decision accordingly, irrespective of who proposed it ?

blueshrimp 24.07.2007 14:35

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
What is wrong with kicking out foreigners who are convicted of crimes?

Well, for argument's sake, consider this.

Most foreigners are, a priori, in general at a disadvantage when obtaining legal advice is concerned.

Why it is a bad idea to kick foreigners out is because there exists the possibility that you kick out foreigners out wrongly, for instance (just off the top of my head).

1. Innocent/wrongly convicted foreigners.
2. Foreigners convicted of serious crimes when only a minor crime was commited.
3. Foreigners having less recourse than "natives" to legal counsel, due to language difficulty, etc.


This is only the first level/obvious drawback.

On a secondary level/longer term effects/caveats are:

1. Increased backlash on foreigners in general. If the crime rate goes up, regardless of cause, foreigners being blamed as scapegoats.
2. "Racial"/ethnic/nationality profiling for crime prosecution.
3. "Framing"/blaming crimes on foreigners when crimes actually committed by nationals. Easier to do when the foreigner being framed is not well aware of his rights.

And finally, even for the average, law/abiding foreigner, this causes bad consequences and alterations in behavior:

For those who like to "recreationally smoke funny things", now you have to be careful that this is not misconstrued as "trafficking", an expulsion type offence.

For those who are even more law abiding, now you have to be doubly careful when you speed on the highway: run over a kid chasing a soccer ball and now you could potentially be called a "murderer".

This doesn't even consider the secondary effects of the kicked out foreigner's families: if you are kicked out to your native country, where, say, there's a war going on, and your family could get murdered.

Or, a husband commits a crime, gets kicked out, the wife stays in Switzerland, now needs to get a job or be supported by the state....what about the kids, too?

Why are foreigners getting targetted here? What about the swiss who commit crimes? Shouldn't they be expelled to, say, Greenland or Siberia or Patagoinia or something, then?

These are questions that should be considered carefully, and there are no easy answers.

Targetting a group, expelling such a group, scapegoating, blaming, is never a good thing, history within the last 60 years already has taught us that, many, many times, do people never learn?

I am worried about such kinds of thoughts actually being entertained by some people on this forum....

Nairda 24.07.2007 14:45

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by xynth (Post 86371)
Now the execution of the concept might be where things get dodgy.

Please god, let's not start debating capital punishment :eek:.

Nairda 24.07.2007 14:48

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dawiz (Post 86370)
I might still vote against the initiative, though, mainly because it was initiated by the SVP.

Thankfully, this is what most Swiss generally do :D.

Colonelboris 24.07.2007 14:55

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Hmm, but then most of those points go regardless of whether you're a foreigner or not, really. Most other countries do also deport foreigners when convicted of serious crimes, so it's not that big a deal. Unfortunately, miscarriages of justice do happen, but usually, if someone appeals, they are usually given leave in that country from which to lodge an appeal. If the SVP proposal states that this should not happen, or that foreign suspects are not entitled to the same fair trials that Swiss citizens would expect, then yes, I would (not that I'm allowed) definitely vote against it.

Blonaybear 24.07.2007 15:01

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Has anyone actually read the full text of the initiative before making their pronouncements ?

blueshrimp 24.07.2007 15:02

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Coronelboris,

The problem is that, if you are deported, in many cases that's the end of the story: you have nowhere to go, and cannot return.

Just because other countries do it is no reason for this country to do this as well. That is a very puerile argument, easily countered with "If your friends all jump in a lake, will you do it too?"

How come the Swiss criminals don't get deported?

A measure to deport "foreign criminals" is discriminatory in its very nature, because the people affected (foreigners) have no say in it: non-citizens don't vote, after all. It is intrinsically unjust, to be subject to a law that brings you questionable advantages (to put it VERY mildly) with no say in the matter!

dawiz 24.07.2007 15:22

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86380)
Surely you should consider an initiative on its merits and make your decision accordingly, irrespective of who proposed it ?

True, but if I'm not 100% convinced of its merits I tend to vote according to my preferred parties' programs.

And as far as SVP initiatives go: I think it's save to say "if in doubt, throw it out".

Colonelboris 24.07.2007 15:23

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I wouldn't support a proposal that got rid of the right to appeal. Why should any country support people who have come there and broken laws that go for everyone? It is different for a countries own citizens because they have no-where else to go. In a way, they probably see it as 'they're our problem, we'll deal with it, while the foreign chappy here on a work permit is his own nation's problem once we've let him out.'
No, it's not ideal, but rarely anything is. Every country sees it as work enough looking after its own problems, without accepting everyone else's as well.
The system could then also be open to abuse. The government of country A has not enough money and an overcrowded penal system, so it would be very easy for them to release a few problem cases and send them to country B knowning they won't be returned. You can see how this would mount up.

WorldTraveller 24.07.2007 15:32

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I find SVP quite suspicious in the way they go about promoting their initiatives especially the white sheep/black sheep thing. It has rather too much of a racial tone. However, I would support reasonable legislation to be much harder on criminality and nip those causes in the bud. It would be a shame if Switzerland start going down the road Britain has gone: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6912216.stm

If swiss laws are in fact weaker relative to their large neighbours with regard to kicking out foreign criminals, then it would make it a criminal haven by virtue of it being more lenient than those around it. If you were a smart criminal, you'd come to Switzerland as the consequences are much less severe than either in France or Germany. Not a good thing in my opinion.

blueshrimp 24.07.2007 15:46

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Colonelboris (Post 86414)
It is different for a countries own citizens because they have no-where else to go.


For many non-citizens, this statement is true also.

<shrug>

Blonaybear 24.07.2007 15:48

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
I’ve just read the text of the initiative in French. The crimes that it applies to are:

Murder
Rape
Grave sexual crimes
Drug trafficking
People trafficking
Abuse of social aid or social insurance.

Offenders would be banned from Switzerland for 5 to 15 years. If they returned and offended again the ban would be 20 years.

There is nothing in the initiative that would appear to take away the normal right of appeal.

PS. Basel already deports 20 to 40 people every year under existing legislation.

blueshrimp 24.07.2007 15:50

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Thanks Blonaybear,

Now for the tricky part:

How is "abuse" defined?

WorldTraveller 24.07.2007 15:57

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Sounds reasonable to me! :cool:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86435)
I’ve just read the text of the initiative in French. The crimes that it applies to are:

Murder
Rape
Grave sexual crimes
Drug trafficking
People trafficking
Abuse of social aid or social insurance.

Offenders would be banned from Switzerland for 5 to 15 years. If they returned and offended again the ban would be 20 years.

There is nothing in the initiative that would appear to take away the normal right of appeal.

PS. Basel already deports 20 to 40 people every year under existing legislation.


Nairda 24.07.2007 16:00

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WorldTraveller (Post 86420)
I find SVP quite suspicious in the way they go about promoting their initiatives especially the white sheep/black sheep thing. It has rather too much of a racial tone. However, I would support reasonable legislation to be much harder on criminality and nip those causes in the bud. It would be a shame if Switzerland start going down the road Britain has gone: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6912216.stm

This article is about binge drinking drunken English yobs. Where's the evidence that binge drinking is a problem in Switzerland? Where's the evidence that deporting foreign criminals reduces binge drinking by the English? :confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by WorldTraveller (Post 86420)
If swiss laws are in fact weaker relative to their large neighbours with regard to kicking out foreign criminals, then it would make it a criminal haven by virtue of it being more lenient than those around it. If you were a smart criminal, you'd come to Switzerland as the consequences are much less severe than either in France or Germany. Not a good thing in my opinion.

Presumably you'd apply for an unlimited Verbrecherbewilligung. :rolleyes:

Polorise 24.07.2007 16:01

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by blueshrimp (Post 86437)
Thanks Blonaybear,

Now for the tricky part:

How is "abuse" defined?

Try asylum seeker claiming state aid : housing, child benefit, financial assistance & also working without permit & therfore not paying taxes..... Same as anywhere else, they are abusing the system.

My main issue is not with the initiative, but with who is pushing it & also the xenophobic subtext regards the image (white sheep / black sheep).

WorldTraveller 24.07.2007 16:04

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 86444)
This article is about binge drinking drunken English yobs. Where's the evidence that binge drinking is a problem in Switzerland? Where's the evidence that deporting foreign criminals reduces binge drinking by the English? :confused:



Presumably you'd apply for an unlimited Verbrecherbewilligung. :rolleyes:

The article wasn't meant as a direct comparison but that if the issue of criminality isn't nipped in the bud, what you get is social decline i.e. UK. And a sensible way for the Swiss to deal with severe criminality would be to deport them back to their own country as it would be silly for the Swiss to pay for their incarceration. Seems sensible. No?

Blonaybear 24.07.2007 16:05

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by blueshrimp (Post 86437)
Thanks Blonaybear,

Now for the tricky part: How is "abuse" defined?

What it says in French is: s’ils ont perçu abusivement des prestations des assurances sociales ou de l’aide sociale so I used the word abuse which, on reflection, was probably not correct. It's better described as fraud or false claims and, obviously, something that is already a criminal offence.

blueshrimp 24.07.2007 16:08

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polorise (Post 86445)
Try asylum seeker claiming state aid : housing, child benefit, financial assistance & also working without permit & therfore not paying taxes..... Same as anywhere else, they are abusing the system.

My point is, "abuse" is a gray area term that can be easily....abused.

My objection with this initiative is that it targets a group, effectively scapegoating them, and this group has no recourse for opposing the matter, as this group can't vote.

Very sneaky tactics.

<shrug>

Polorise 24.07.2007 16:11

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

My point is, "abuse" is a gray area term that can be easily....abused
suggest we agree to disagree on this one ... my example is pretty crystal in its clarity .... have you read the full text on this ? :msnsarcastic:

blueshrimp 24.07.2007 16:12

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86449)
What it says in French is: s’ils ont perçu abusivement des prestations des assurances sociales ou de l’aide sociale so I used the word abuse which, on reflection, was probably not correct. It's better described as fraud or false claims and, obviously, something that is already a criminal offence.


Blonaybear,

"fraud or false claims".... this is not what your french quote above says, either.....

Lob 24.07.2007 16:14

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 86444)
This article is about binge drinking drunken English yobs. Where's the evidence that binge drinking is a problem in Switzerland? Where's the evidence that deporting foreign criminals reduces binge drinking by the English? :confused:

indeed that would be a whole new thread but in summary, you can drink 24 hours a day here yet there is no real fallout from that (bar social cases of course). I haven't seen a fight in a long time here.

blueshrimp 24.07.2007 16:15

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
[quote=Polorise;86453]
Quote:

Originally Posted by blueshrimp (Post 86451)
My point is, "abuse" is a gray area term that can be easily....abused.quote]

suggest we agree to disagree on this one ... my example is pretty crystal in its clarity .... have you read the full text on this ? :msnsarcastic:



Your example is just one example that is crystal clear, maybe (debatable, of course, but let's agree to disagree).

And yet,

Real life is very seldom that crystal clear.

<shrug>

chemgoddess 24.07.2007 16:21

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Does anybody know what the current laws are regarding deportation of "criminals who are foreigners?" I'm assuming they have some sort of system in place and if so, why then is the SVP looking to change the current system?

Blonaybear 24.07.2007 16:21

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by blueshrimp (Post 86454)
Blonaybear,

"fraud or false claims".... this is not what your french quote above says, either.....

The initiative is an amendment to the constitution 18/4/99 (Art. 121,al. 3 à 6).
The initiative refers to crimes so, by definition, the offence has to be a crime already.

WorldTraveller 24.07.2007 16:22

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
[QUOTE=blueshrimp;86458]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Polorise (Post 86453)



Your example is just one example that is crystal clear, maybe (debatable, of course, but let's agree to disagree).

And yet,

Real life is very seldom that crystal clear.

<shrug>

....sounds like the only thing that's crystal clear is that nothing is crystal clear. The only thing not up for debate is that everything is up for debate. :rolleyes:

blueshrimp 24.07.2007 16:35

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
By the way,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polorise (Post 86453)
.... have you read the full text on this ? :msnsarcastic:

Have you?

Take a look at the first statement in bold on page 12 of the ausschaffungsinitiative-d.pdf available at:
http://www.typo3start.ch/sites/aussc...itiative-d.pdf

It is pretty scary stuff (I am referring, of course, to the statement that Ausslaender that do not want to integrate should be kicked out!)! Now what, are they going to kick out foreigners who still want to go to their own churches, who speak their own language at home, who criticize Switzerland, because these are signs of "not wanting to integrate"?

While this is not the main point of the initiative, the fact that this is the background thinking /justification for it should raise many red flags to the rational thinker....

Reading the rest of the article, it just reads like a repressive manifesto (take a look, for instance, at p17, where prostitution is considered one crime for which these foreigners should be deported). My german is not that great, but it appears to me that not only "murder", but any kind of homicide is included as well (go back to where I said you run over a kid chasing a soccer ball, please, curiously this is used as an example, but the driver is not any old "foreigner", but a "Manager". Wonder if the veredict as to what constitutes "deportation permissible" homicide would change if the driver were not a manager, but a factory worker) Take a look at the manifesto yourself, and then tell me, whether it still sounds like a good idea.

Yikes.

Nairda 24.07.2007 16:43

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blonaybear (Post 86403)
Has anyone actually read the full text of the initiative before making their pronouncements ?

A very fair question, although it's surely also reasonable for people to respond to the 'sheep' image as that is how the initiative is being advertised and promoted and presumably this is the understanding the SVP are intending to convey, otherwise why would they use it?

I started reading the SVP's arguments in favour document, but stopped when I got to the bit about the Muslim population having doubled in 10 years and the statement, presumably in support of deporting benefit cheats, as follows:

"Die britische Regierung gibt offen zu, dass Polygamie in muslimischen Kreisen Grossbritanniens in Mode kommt und legal ausgelebt werden kann. Daher dürfen Muslime in Grossbritannien auch für jede Frau staatliche Sozialleistungen beantragen, wenn die Polygamie in ihrem Ursprungsland praktiziert wird."

In other words (if you'll excuse my German):
The British government openly admits that polygamy is coming into fashion in Muslim circles in Great Britain and can be legally lived out. Therefore, many Muslims in Great Britain are also allowed to apply for national social security benefits for each wife, if polygamy is practiced in their country of origin.

Well, if anyone believes that they'll believe anything.

WorldTraveller 24.07.2007 16:52

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 86477)
A very fair question, although it's surely also reasonable for people to respond to the 'sheep' image as that is how the initiative is being advertised and promoted and presumably this is the understanding the SVP are intending to convey, otherwise why would they use it?

I started reading the SVP's arguments in favour document, but stopped when I got to the bit about the Muslim population having doubled in 10 years and the statement, presumably in support of deporting benefit cheats, as follows:

"Die britische Regierung gibt offen zu, dass Polygamie in muslimischen Kreisen Grossbritanniens in Mode kommt und legal ausgelebt werden kann. Daher dürfen Muslime in Grossbritannien auch für jede Frau staatliche Sozialleistungen beantragen, wenn die Polygamie in ihrem Ursprungsland praktiziert wird."

In other words (if you'll excuse my German):
The British government openly admits that polygamy is coming into fashion in Muslim circles in Great Britain and can be legally lived out. Therefore, many Muslims in Great Britain are also allowed to apply for national social security benefits for each wife, if polygamy is practiced in their country of origin.

Not as far fetched as you might think: http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/l...cle1848488.ece

"From The Times
May 28, 2007
1,000 men living legally with multiple wives despite fears over exploitation
Dominic Kennedy
Polygamous marriage is flourishing as the Government admits for the first time that nearly a thousand men are living legally with multiple wives in Britain.

Although the families are entitled to claim social security for each wife, no one has counted how many of them are on benefits.

Ministers appear to be ignoring the separate practice of unauthorised polygamy, which is said to have become commonplace in some Muslim communities. The Ministry of Justice admits that it has no estimates of numbers for these unions, which are often presided over by an Islamic cleric........"

Polorise 24.07.2007 16:53

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nairda (Post 86477)
A very fair question, although it's surely also reasonable for people to respond to the 'sheep' image as that is how the initiative is being advertised and promoted and presumably this is the understanding the SVP are intending to convey, otherwise why would they use it?

my point exactly, the use of the image is deplorable. The whole thing is an attempt by the SVP to garner further support for crank schemes, based on existing immigration laws. Coming from the UK, am used to Spin :msnshock:

A legal expert may disagree, but thats my take.

Nairda 24.07.2007 16:57

Re: Security Creation Initiative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lob Rockster (Post 86457)
indeed that would be a whole new thread but in summary, you can drink 24 hours a day here yet there is no real fallout from that (bar social cases of course). I haven't seen a fight in a long time here.

Off topic - If you keep doing that with your avatar I'll start a "What happened to Victor Meldrew" thread - I miss the old fart.
Ooh, I've come over all Mod-like :p.


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