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Old 24.07.2007, 13:22
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Security Creation Initiative [aka SVP black sheep and grabbing hands posters]

Can anybody who speaks German help me understand what exactly this initiative is about. I can't seem to find any information in English and it's a tad confusing trying to use my minimal german along with google translate.

www.ausschaffungsinitiative.ch

From an ad in today's "20 Minuten" (which is kind of strange as the picture show's a bunch of white sheep kicking a black sheep out of Switzerland)


"Sicherheit schaffen. Mit der Ausschaffungsinitiative können Ausländer, die in der schweiz schwere Verbrechen begehen, endlich konsequent des landes verweisen. So schaffen wir mehr Sicherheit für unsere Kinder, Frauen und Männer."

Thanks.
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Old 24.07.2007, 13:28
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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Can anybody who speaks German help me understand what exactly this initiative is about. I can't seem to find any information in English and it's a tad confusing trying to use my minimal german along with google translate.

www.ausschaffungsinitiative.ch

From an ad in today's "20 Minuten" (which is kind of strange as the picture show's a bunch of white sheep kicking a black sheep out of Switzerland)


"Sicherheit schaffen. Mit der Ausschaffungsinitiative können Ausländer, die in der schweiz schwere Verbrechen begehen, endlich konsequent des landes verweisen. So schaffen wir mehr Sicherheit für unsere Kinder, Frauen und Männer."

Thanks.
Its an SVP initiative, saw this in Der Bund this morning. Basically its all to do with kicking out the "black sheep" ; i.e. social undesirables & foreigners that get convicted of felonies ... however am sure there is a subtext to the picture ... pathetic really
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Old 24.07.2007, 13:42
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

at least they bothered this time to get their site done in more than just German. 19/10 for bad web design though
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Old 24.07.2007, 15:11
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

Yep, it's about "consistently deporting foreign criminals to ensure security for our children, women and men" (no Swiss commit serious criminal offences). The image suggests to the typical SVP voter that this will cleanse the country off non-whites, who presumably commit all the crime. I suspect the SVP definition of 'black' also includes 'Jugos' (non-Swiss youth of Yogoslav parentage).

Also being discussed in the white and non-white foreigners thread...
White & Non White foreigners..
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Old 24.07.2007, 15:12
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

You'll find a brief explanation of the initiative here.
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Old 24.07.2007, 15:16
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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Yep, it's about "consistently deporting foreign criminals to ensure security for our children, women and men" (no Swiss commit serious criminal offences). The image suggests to the typical SVP voter that this will cleanse the country off non-whites, who presumably commit all the crime. I suspect the SVP definition of 'black' also includes 'Jugos' (non-Swiss youth of Yogoslav parentage).
quote this morning from a Swiss colleague after I showed him the link :

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Boah, it's pathetic have never seen the add but heard about the initiative….. It's about kicking foreigners out of the country when committing crimes. In case of non adults there shall even be a clause to kick out the whole family when youngsters play ganster…
I wonder where they want to send families of young criminal swiss citizens…????
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Old 24.07.2007, 15:17
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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Its an SVP initiative, saw this in Der Bund this morning. Basically its all to do with kicking out the "black sheep" ; i.e. social undesirables & foreigners that get convicted of felonies ... however am sure there is a subtext to the picture ... pathetic really
While I'm most definitely not an SVP voter, the proposed new law isn't really as extraordinary is it may look at first glance. Switzerland has extremely mild laws when it comes to asylum seekers and legal aliens who commit serious crimes. I don't know of any other country in the world who will let immigrants that committed murder stay in the country or let them in again after a few years of being banned from coming back. In France, for example, it's common practice to deport whole families if minors in that family commit serious crimes. You can get deported from the US very quickly, too. And former legal aliens who became British citizens can lose their citizenship and get kicked out if they are convicted under the terrorist act - an idea that initially was included in the initiative as well but went too far even for the SVP.

I might still vote against the initiative, though, mainly because it was initiated by the SVP.
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Old 24.07.2007, 15:18
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

The concept itself is nothing I would worry about. Why would it bother you that foreigner criminals will be deported? Should the swiss just cram everyone into swiss prisions so we can all pay for them?

Sure, this doesn't solve the cause of the criminality, but principally I have nothing against criminals being deported.

Now the execution of the concept might be where things get dodgy.
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Old 24.07.2007, 15:22
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

That's more what I was curious about. I have no problem with the Swiss kicking out murderers, rapists, etc. That might very well be the angle that the SVP is presenting. I would like to know what the fine print says, exactly what all the initiative entails.

Regardless, the cartoon that goes with it I find deplorable.

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The concept itself is nothing I would worry about. Why would it bother you that foreigner criminals will be deported? Should the swiss just cram everyone into swiss prisions so we can all pay for them?

Sure, this doesn't solve the cause of the criminality, but principally I have nothing against criminals being deported.

Now the execution of the concept might be where things get dodgy.
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Old 24.07.2007, 15:31
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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I might still vote against the initiative, though, mainly because it was initiated by the SVP.

Surely you should consider an initiative on its merits and make your decision accordingly, irrespective of who proposed it ?
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Old 24.07.2007, 15:35
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

What is wrong with kicking out foreigners who are convicted of crimes?

Well, for argument's sake, consider this.

Most foreigners are, a priori, in general at a disadvantage when obtaining legal advice is concerned.

Why it is a bad idea to kick foreigners out is because there exists the possibility that you kick out foreigners out wrongly, for instance (just off the top of my head).

1. Innocent/wrongly convicted foreigners.
2. Foreigners convicted of serious crimes when only a minor crime was commited.
3. Foreigners having less recourse than "natives" to legal counsel, due to language difficulty, etc.


This is only the first level/obvious drawback.

On a secondary level/longer term effects/caveats are:

1. Increased backlash on foreigners in general. If the crime rate goes up, regardless of cause, foreigners being blamed as scapegoats.
2. "Racial"/ethnic/nationality profiling for crime prosecution.
3. "Framing"/blaming crimes on foreigners when crimes actually committed by nationals. Easier to do when the foreigner being framed is not well aware of his rights.

And finally, even for the average, law/abiding foreigner, this causes bad consequences and alterations in behavior:

For those who like to "recreationally smoke funny things", now you have to be careful that this is not misconstrued as "trafficking", an expulsion type offence.

For those who are even more law abiding, now you have to be doubly careful when you speed on the highway: run over a kid chasing a soccer ball and now you could potentially be called a "murderer".

This doesn't even consider the secondary effects of the kicked out foreigner's families: if you are kicked out to your native country, where, say, there's a war going on, and your family could get murdered.

Or, a husband commits a crime, gets kicked out, the wife stays in Switzerland, now needs to get a job or be supported by the state....what about the kids, too?

Why are foreigners getting targetted here? What about the swiss who commit crimes? Shouldn't they be expelled to, say, Greenland or Siberia or Patagoinia or something, then?

These are questions that should be considered carefully, and there are no easy answers.

Targetting a group, expelling such a group, scapegoating, blaming, is never a good thing, history within the last 60 years already has taught us that, many, many times, do people never learn?

I am worried about such kinds of thoughts actually being entertained by some people on this forum....
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Old 24.07.2007, 15:45
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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Now the execution of the concept might be where things get dodgy.
Please god, let's not start debating capital punishment .
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Old 24.07.2007, 15:48
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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I might still vote against the initiative, though, mainly because it was initiated by the SVP.
Thankfully, this is what most Swiss generally do .
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Old 24.07.2007, 15:55
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

Hmm, but then most of those points go regardless of whether you're a foreigner or not, really. Most other countries do also deport foreigners when convicted of serious crimes, so it's not that big a deal. Unfortunately, miscarriages of justice do happen, but usually, if someone appeals, they are usually given leave in that country from which to lodge an appeal. If the SVP proposal states that this should not happen, or that foreign suspects are not entitled to the same fair trials that Swiss citizens would expect, then yes, I would (not that I'm allowed) definitely vote against it.
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Old 24.07.2007, 16:01
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

Has anyone actually read the full text of the initiative before making their pronouncements ?
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Old 24.07.2007, 16:02
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

Coronelboris,

The problem is that, if you are deported, in many cases that's the end of the story: you have nowhere to go, and cannot return.

Just because other countries do it is no reason for this country to do this as well. That is a very puerile argument, easily countered with "If your friends all jump in a lake, will you do it too?"

How come the Swiss criminals don't get deported?

A measure to deport "foreign criminals" is discriminatory in its very nature, because the people affected (foreigners) have no say in it: non-citizens don't vote, after all. It is intrinsically unjust, to be subject to a law that brings you questionable advantages (to put it VERY mildly) with no say in the matter!
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Old 24.07.2007, 16:22
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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Surely you should consider an initiative on its merits and make your decision accordingly, irrespective of who proposed it ?
True, but if I'm not 100% convinced of its merits I tend to vote according to my preferred parties' programs.

And as far as SVP initiatives go: I think it's save to say "if in doubt, throw it out".

Last edited by dawiz; 24.07.2007 at 16:34.
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Old 24.07.2007, 16:23
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

I wouldn't support a proposal that got rid of the right to appeal. Why should any country support people who have come there and broken laws that go for everyone? It is different for a countries own citizens because they have no-where else to go. In a way, they probably see it as 'they're our problem, we'll deal with it, while the foreign chappy here on a work permit is his own nation's problem once we've let him out.'
No, it's not ideal, but rarely anything is. Every country sees it as work enough looking after its own problems, without accepting everyone else's as well.
The system could then also be open to abuse. The government of country A has not enough money and an overcrowded penal system, so it would be very easy for them to release a few problem cases and send them to country B knowning they won't be returned. You can see how this would mount up.
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Old 24.07.2007, 16:32
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

I find SVP quite suspicious in the way they go about promoting their initiatives especially the white sheep/black sheep thing. It has rather too much of a racial tone. However, I would support reasonable legislation to be much harder on criminality and nip those causes in the bud. It would be a shame if Switzerland start going down the road Britain has gone: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6912216.stm

If swiss laws are in fact weaker relative to their large neighbours with regard to kicking out foreign criminals, then it would make it a criminal haven by virtue of it being more lenient than those around it. If you were a smart criminal, you'd come to Switzerland as the consequences are much less severe than either in France or Germany. Not a good thing in my opinion.
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Old 24.07.2007, 16:46
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Re: Security Creation Initiative

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It is different for a countries own citizens because they have no-where else to go.

For many non-citizens, this statement is true also.

<shrug>
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