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Old 13.01.2011, 21:23
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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This part is serious, and not at all funny.
I agree with it.
I am quite surprised with the degree of over-emotional responses here.

Why would a woman "fear her husband's access to his military issue weapon"? Why would did she have married him then? Nearly every male in this country has his assault rifle at home, and nearly everyone's father had his Karabiner in the closet. There is no reason to be frightened. Most people fear firearms because they have no experience with them, or because they have been influenced by TV. A handgun is no more dangerous than a kitchen knife. Both are deadly when misused.

In this country, the army weapon is ubiquitous. I have lived in this country for 28 years, and I have never met a Swiss person with the horrid fears that are so evident in these posts. Granted, I am not typical - my father taught me to shoot when I was 5. Proper safety rules, proper discipline = no fears, but respect for potential dangers. I was invited by a work colleague to take in a weekend Schutzenfest and promptly won my first Kranz. I spent many years in that Verein, and I met many local people "on their own ground". At the same time I learned Swiss German, and found myself accepted and respected by a large number of like-minded marksman. These are not dangerous people - they are warm hearted, welcoming and patient, when you take the time to know them. I get the impression that a lot of people here are not terribly well integrated into Swiss culture and therefore they have this deep set fear of the armed citizen. To a certain extent I can understand this from the British contributers as they were never exposed to firearms (not even the bobbies carried them - 'stop stealing that or I'll blow my whistle again!'), and perhaps from the English-speaking non-Swiss. But I can tell you with a great deal of confidence: the problem will not be the armed Swiss citizen.

Vote no. The true dangers to society are already armed and believe me, they aren't going to drop off their weapons at the armory and pick it up on the weekend.
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  #222  
Old 13.01.2011, 21:26
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Put both together - and it gets really scary.
  #223  
Old 13.01.2011, 21:45
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Why would a woman "fear her husband's access to his military issue weapon"?
Indeed, as she has equal access.

Tom
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  #224  
Old 13.01.2011, 21:48
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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There are many women in countries around the world who fear their husband's access to alcohol, with the bruises and broken bones to justify this fear.
And, men who fear the same from their wives.

It cuts both ways.

Thankfully, I've never been in either situation.

Tom
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  #225  
Old 13.01.2011, 22:04
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Why would a woman "fear her husband's access to his military issue weapon"? Why would did she have married him then? Nearly every male in this country has his assault rifle at home, and nearly everyone's father had his Karabiner in the closet. There is no reason to be frightened.
Naive, much? Does the term "domestic violence" ring a bell? Or do you consider all these women stupid?

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Most people fear firearms because they have no experience with them, or because they have been influenced by TV. A handgun is no more dangerous than a kitchen knife. Both are deadly when misused.
That is a very good reason to have a gun. Instills a lot of trust, indeed.

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In this country, the army weapon is ubiquitous. I have lived in this country for 28 years, and I have never met a Swiss person with the horrid fears that are so evident in these posts. Granted, I am not typical - my father taught me to shoot when I was 5. Proper safety rules, proper discipline = no fears, but respect for potential dangers. I was invited by a work colleague to take in a weekend Schutzenfest and promptly won my first Kranz. I spent many years in that Verein, and I met many local people "on their own ground". At the same time I learned Swiss German, and found myself accepted and respected by a large number of like-minded marksman. These are not dangerous people - they are warm hearted, welcoming and patient, when you take the time to know them.
What is your point? With the the initiative they can actually continue to do so. Nobody speaks about forbidding sport shooters to have weapons for that purpose.

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I get the impression that a lot of people here are not terribly well integrated into Swiss culture and therefore they have this deep set fear of the armed citizen. To a certain extent I can understand this from the British contributers as they were never exposed to firearms (not even the bobbies carried them - 'stop stealing that or I'll blow my whistle again!'), and perhaps from the English-speaking non-Swiss.
I'm a 100% pure bred swiss. More so than your Christoph Blocher. I was also friends with a girl from my school. She is dead now, shot twice in the head by a swiss who should never have had access to a rifle.

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But I can tell you with a great deal of confidence: the problem will not be the armed Swiss citizen.
Remember Friedrich Leibacher.

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The Zug massacre took place on September 27, 2001 in the city of Zug (Canton of Zug, Switzerland) in the canton's parliament. Fourteen people were shot dead by Friedrich Leibacher, who killed himself shortly after the crime.[1]
In the years before the massacre, Leibacher drew attention to himself by an intense use of lawsuits. These were dismissed, so he assumed he was being persecuted by the state, thus he felt he had to resort to the crime.[2]
He was armed with a civilian version of a Stgw 90 (Swiss Army assault rifle),[3] a SIG-Sauer-pistol, a pump-action shotgun and a revolver, using a home-made police vest, Leibacher was able to enter the parliament building without problem.
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Vote no. The true dangers to society are already armed and believe me, they aren't going to drop off their weapons at the armory and pick it up on the weekend.
Ah yeah, those pesky foreigners again.
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  #226  
Old 13.01.2011, 22:15
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

There is a lot of domestic violence in CH and alcoholism as well. And I am quite sure that the gun and bullets are NOT accessible to many wives.

Not something I've ever had to fear in my family as a child, or with my OH (who has never been anywhere near a gun and is the nicest Brit possible).

Swiss born and bred here too, btw.
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  #227  
Old 13.01.2011, 22:24
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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It seems that many women "fear" their husband's access to his military issue weapon.
Well, if I were married to such a woman, I would immediately sue for divorce.

I could never live in such a situation, and I don't even have a gun. Just the fact that someone would think like that would make me walk away!

That is truly screwed up thinking.

Tom
  #228  
Old 13.01.2011, 22:35
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Not if you husband uses you as a regular punch-ball, especially when he's been drinking. (again something I just cannot fathom - but which does happen a lot- here and elsewhere).
  #229  
Old 13.01.2011, 22:35
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Well, if I were married to such a woman, I would immediately sue for divorce.

I could never live in such a situation, and I don't even have a gun. Just the fact that someone would think like that would make me walk away!

That is truly screwed up thinking.

Tom
Aw come on: You don't beat your wife. But some guys do. And they do tend to get more and more violent. The claim "I'll kill you if you leave me" gets much more persuasive when it is backed up by a fully automatic military assault rifle.

Having experienced that (seen as a kid at a friends house), by the way is what convinced right-winger and SVP-member This Jenny to support the initiative.
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Old 14.01.2011, 01:17
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

[QUOTE=SamWeiseVielleicht;1068568]

I'm a 100% pure bred swiss. More so than your Christoph Blocher. I was also friends with a girl from my school. She is dead now, shot twice in the head by a swiss who should never have had access to a rifle.
[QUOTE]
W5: whowhatwherewhywhen ! please share your story with us
  #231  
Old 14.01.2011, 01:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Aw come on: You don't beat your wife. But some guys do. And they do tend to get more and more violent. The claim "I'll kill you if you leave me" gets much more persuasive when it is backed up by a fully automatic military assault rifle.

Having experienced that (seen as a kid at a friends house), by the way is what convinced right-winger and SVP-member This Jenny to support the initiative.
Yea I know al about domestic violents, my sis used to beat the crap out of her husband .He also had a the stg57 at home ,at the end he divorced my sis
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  #232  
Old 14.01.2011, 10:20
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I own several guns in Switzerland, and I consider it an essential right to own them. I wouldn't worry about initiatives like this one at all if it wasn't for the following three reasons:

1. Governments have been gradually chipping away at the freedom of citizens. There is a trend that everything has to be regulated and anything that is not regulated yet is a risk. What will come next? We'll restrict/ban sports cars because they encourage spirited driving? We'll issue cricket/baseball bats only to sport club members because they can be used to cave in another person's skull?
2. Initiatives like these often come as a sorry alibistic excuse from politicians who want to be seen doing something. Instead of working to fix the cause of issues, it is always easier to enact laws left right and center.
3. The most empty and alibistic reason that has become a meme by now "BUT think of the children" - whenever anyone mentions this reason, it is immediately apparent that they are running out of proper arguments.

I'm also surprised about some of the arguments for the law:

1. We need the law to implement a national register of guns - this already exists because of the Schengen regulations. So voting for this law to ensure guns are registered is plain muppetry.
2. The law will ensure that only people with a legitimate reason will own guns - again, this is already there. When requesting a permit, one has to provide a reason why they want to own firearms.
3. It is too easy to commit suicide with guns - this is a prime example of short sighted nanny state thinging whereby the state has to protect the citizens from themselves, they are not grown and responsible adults after all!

I live in Switzerland because I uphold the ideal of personal freedom and being responsible for one's own actions. It is the exact opposite of the UK where my own safety is being shoved down my throat on every step I make, and I feel like a child that has to be herded by the state, otherwise I would fall on the rail tracks, slip on snow ('cause I'm not bright enough to know that snow is slippery...). I don't want to live in a country where I cannot decide how much risk I want to live with, where I cannot take my kid to the playground if there is snow, since the council closed it down to "prevent" kids injuring themselves instead of leaving access to the parent's discretion.

Therefore I ask you, before you cast your vote, think through whether this law will really make you feel safer and whether it will have any effect at all (apart from burdening us with even more regulation). The UK has one of the most restrictive firearms laws, but do you feel safer there?

Last edited by xynth; 14.01.2011 at 10:22. Reason: Ninja edit since I cannot count seemingly
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  #233  
Old 14.01.2011, 10:34
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Naive, much? Does the term "domestic violence" ring a bell? Or do you consider all these women stupid?
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Not if you husband uses you as a regular punch-ball, especially when he's been drinking. (again something I just cannot fathom - but which does happen a lot- here and elsewhere).
Again, by restricting firearms, you are applying a leaky patch to a much deeper issue that must be solved completely elsewhere and differently. Do you think that by removing the guns, abused women will be safe?
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  #234  
Old 14.01.2011, 14:53
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I own several guns in Switzerland, and I consider it an essential right to own them. I wouldn't worry about initiatives like this one at all if it wasn't for the following three reasons:

1. Governments have been gradually chipping away at the freedom of citizens. There is a trend that everything has to be regulated and anything that is not regulated yet is a risk. What will come next? We'll restrict/ban sports cars because they encourage spirited driving? We'll issue cricket/baseball bats only to sport club members because they can be used to cave in another person's skull?
2. Initiatives like these often come as a sorry alibistic excuse from politicians who want to be seen doing something. Instead of working to fix the cause of issues, it is always easier to enact laws left right and center.
3. The most empty and alibistic reason that has become a meme by now "BUT think of the children" - whenever anyone mentions this reason, it is immediately apparent that they are running out of proper arguments.

I'm also surprised about some of the arguments for the law:

1. We need the law to implement a national register of guns - this already exists because of the Schengen regulations. So voting for this law to ensure guns are registered is plain muppetry.
2. The law will ensure that only people with a legitimate reason will own guns - again, this is already there. When requesting a permit, one has to provide a reason why they want to own firearms.
3. It is too easy to commit suicide with guns - this is a prime example of short sighted nanny state thinging whereby the state has to protect the citizens from themselves, they are not grown and responsible adults after all!

I live in Switzerland because I uphold the ideal of personal freedom and being responsible for one's own actions. It is the exact opposite of the UK where my own safety is being shoved down my throat on every step I make, and I feel like a child that has to be herded by the state, otherwise I would fall on the rail tracks, slip on snow ('cause I'm not bright enough to know that snow is slippery...). I don't want to live in a country where I cannot decide how much risk I want to live with, where I cannot take my kid to the playground if there is snow, since the council closed it down to "prevent" kids injuring themselves instead of leaving access to the parent's discretion.

Therefore I ask you, before you cast your vote, think through whether this law will really make you feel safer and whether it will have any effect at all (apart from burdening us with even more regulation). The UK has one of the most restrictive firearms laws, but do you feel safer there?
http://www.theblessingsofliberty.com...article11.html
Here is a other article about it
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  #235  
Old 14.01.2011, 15:43
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I'm a shooter and have a collection of old military rifles back at home in the US, mostly old bolt action but some ww2 era semis as well. I collect em. Im not someone who is fundamentally opposed to the idea of gun ownership or see it as crazy or whatever.

that disclaimer aside, i really dislike this type of NRA rhetoric where the author tries to build the case that there's a causal relationshi between high ownership of weapons and low crime, and that the inverse is true, and use CH as a model. I think i mentioned it in a previous post as well.

the reason CH is virtually crime free by many countries standards is not because thieves are deterred by Urs Meier with his assault weapon at home defending the house. This "castle doctrine" mentality may work in Texas, but i think thats a very frustratingly american projection on the situation here.

CH is virtually crime free because of other, non weapon related reasons: high literacy, high employment, a relatively speaking homogenous society and wealth distribution, good social safety nets. These things keep people from getting to the place where violence is the answer. Switzerland is relatively crime free the same way "nice neighborhoods" in the US are: people have money, opportunities, and dont need to turn to violence.

I remember reading a story about a guy in North Carolina or something who went back to the factory where hed worked for years and shot a number of his former coworkers because "they wouldnt give me unemployment" and he was crazy desperate. That stuff doesnt happen here. I know not all crime is like that obviously and thats just anecdotal, but it seems like a lot of people "who go postal" in the US wouldnt if they had access to the same types of services that people have access to in w. european societies.
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  #236  
Old 14.01.2011, 20:24
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Naive, much? Does the term "domestic violence" ring a bell? Or do you consider all these women stupid?
That is a very good reason to have a gun. Instills a lot of trust, indeed.
What is your point? With the the initiative they can actually continue to do so. Nobody speaks about forbidding sport shooters to have weapons for that purpose.
I'm a 100% pure bred swiss. More so than your Christoph Blocher. I was also friends with a girl from my school. She is dead now, shot twice in the head by a swiss who should never have had access to a rifle.
Remember Friedrich Leibacher.
Ah yeah, those pesky foreigners again.
Jesus H. You need to recalibrate your meds.

Sure glad you didn't have a gun.
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  #237  
Old 14.01.2011, 20:28
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Again, by restricting firearms, you are applying a leaky patch to a much deeper issue that must be solved completely elsewhere and differently. Do you think that by removing the guns, abused women will be safe?
No, but safer.
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  #238  
Old 14.01.2011, 20:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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No, but safer.
And then you woke up
  #239  
Old 14.01.2011, 21:01
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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that disclaimer aside, i really dislike this type of NRA rhetoric where the author tries to build the case that there's a causal relationshi between high ownership of weapons and low crime, and that the inverse is true, and use CH as a model. I think i mentioned it in a previous post as well....words....
I agree with you very much. This is why I deliberately avoided the often quoted (incorrect) argument that an armed population is a deterrent to violent crime.

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No, but safer.
Could you back this up with any statistics of husbands killing spouses with guns vs. other implements? By the same extension, banning knives would make them significantly safer, since knives are literally in every household and they can be used without any premeditation (they don't even need ammo).

What I'm trying to say is instead of a proper solution, why are we looking for superfluous solutions with unproven effectivity?
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Old 15.01.2011, 10:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

It's quite simple, people should not be allowed to have firearms at home at all. There are too many impulsive situations where somebody would commit suicide or killed somebody, if there were no firearms available the person would think twice.

As SVPs lame excuse for being against, they say it's about trust, but if Switzerland would have trusted people completely then people should have been allowed to have ammo at home also. There is a reason why people are not allowed to have ammo at home...pure and simple..KO!

There are NO reasons what so ever for people to have firearms at home, except for the incredible stupid US mantra...

But there are many many reasons for not having...(misuse, can easily be stolen since there are no rules how to store them and everyone knows that people here has a rifle at home, impulsive actions etc)
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